National Emergency Gun Control

[T.Lex]

I truly hope they rescind the law being used for this, it truly was a surrender of Congressional power, but so is writing and passing outline laws and letting the administration bureaucracy fill them in.

Where are you finding the notion that Congress had the power to delegate national emergency response to the POTUS? Like, BEFORE they passed the law, did Congress have the powers listed in the law?

 

[jamil]

Trump defeated 16 other candidates if I recall correctly to get the Republican nomination. I don’t think enough will have changed within four years to relegate him to “bird**** on the pavement” no matter who comes up to challenge him. And this is coming from someone who is not in the tank for Trump. I’ll be happy to vote against him if the right conservative or libertarian comes along.

He won the republican nomination because the primary system is easy to game. You do all you can to knock people out of the race and take their support as the primaries drag on. all the primary elections happened on the same day, I'm not so sure Trump would have won. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there aren't a lot of fiercely loyal Trump supporters. There are. But they're nowhere near a majority of people. A majority of voters voted for the Hildabeast.

I'm saying the ardent Trumpers alone are not enough to elect him. Trump needed the disenfranchised Bernie bros not to vote for Hillary. Some voted for Trump even. Trump needed the people who only voted for Trump because he's not Hillary. Trump will need those people again. Another thing Trump really needs is to face a bat**** crazy Democrat. So far that looks likely since everyone in the race now is bat**** crazy. Trump's worst case scenario would be to face a reasonable, articulate, moderate Democrat, who appeals to a wide range of voters. I'm not sure one exists, and if one did, I'm not sure one could make it through the primaries. Primaries tend to work better for fringe candidates.

 

[Fargo]

Where are you finding the notion that Congress had the power to delegate national emergency response to the POTUS? Like, BEFORE they passed the law, did Congress have the powers listed in the law?

Article 4, section 4 would at least imply that Congress retains the power as long as they are capable of entering session.

Using Lincoln as a legal example isn’t particularly compelling to me, especially in light of ex parte McCardle etc.

 

[jamil]

Article 4, section 4 would at least imply that Congress retains the power as long as they are capable of entering session.

Using Lincoln as a legal example isn’t particularly compelling to me, especially in light of ex parte McCardle etc.

I get it. It's the way it should be. But that's just legal talk. People with power find ways to do what they want. Is a court really all that likely to challenge the ability for congress to delegate to the executive branch? It comes down to virtually untouchable people in robes deciding these matters, often along party lines.

 

[Denny347]

He won the republican nomination because the primary system is easy to game. You do all you can to knock people out of the race and take their support as the primaries drag on. all the primary elections happened on the same day, I'm not so sure Trump would have won. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying there aren't a lot of fiercely loyal Trump supporters. There are. But they're nowhere near a majority of people. A majority of voters voted for the Hildabeast.

I'm saying the ardent Trumpers alone are not enough to elect him. Trump needed the disenfranchised Bernie bros not to vote for Hillary. Some voted for Trump even. Trump needed the people who only voted for Trump because he's not Hillary. Trump will need those people again. Another thing Trump really needs is to face a bat**** crazy Democrat. So far that looks likely since everyone in the race now is bat**** crazy. Trump's worst case scenario would be to face a reasonable, articulate, moderate Democrat, who appeals to a wide range of voters. I'm not sure one exists, and if one did, I'm not sure one could make it through the primaries. Primaries tend to work better for fringe candidates.

 

[Leadeye]

I still believe that Trump won in 2016 because he spoke to people who felt left behind by the direction leadership in this country was going, republican or democrat. It helped that the democrats ran a candidate that was clearly out in front on this which alienated her to many who might have been traditional democrat voters in old manufacturing states. Much like 1980, when I see people coming out to vote for a candidate that don't normally vote at all, it shows you the message is connecting. The future in 202O? A lot will depend on how those people that came out to vote perceive what he has delivered. Perception though is everything. He may deliver very little in 4 years, but if those voters believe that he's fighting their fight passionately, and the democrats continue in 2020 like 2016, he'll be back.

 

[Mark 1911]

Is that in America alone?

Well perhaps that's a better use of a "national emergency" declaration.

Yes the 1.6 million is US statistics only. Worldwide was approximately 42 million for 1 year.

 

[T.Lex]

Article 4, section 4 would at least imply that Congress retains the power as long as they are capable of entering session.

Using Lincoln as a legal example isn’t particularly compelling to me, especially in light of ex parte McCardle etc.

Article 4, section 4 - the republican form of government?

Upthread, there was this quote (that I haven't checked the provenance of):

"seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, institute martial law, seize and control all transportation and communication, regulate the operation of private enterprise, restrict travel, and, in a variety of ways, control the lives of United States citizens."

Some of those already were/are executive decisions, but others of those like "seize property, organize and control the means of production" aren't powers that Congress has, so they can't really delegate them.

I only bring up Lincoln for the historical reference. He actually did executive things that were authoritarian. He exercised those powers. That was WAY before the emergencies act. Other POTUSs did less obvious things that brought us to the "pen and a phone" executive ordering.

 

[HoughMade]

Because we are furiously braiding a whip that’s assumed couldn’t possibly ever be used on our backs?

Apparently no one remembers what FDR did with this sort of power.

You mean implement socialism that even people who call themselves conservative now will defend to the death?

 

[Fargo]

Article 4, section 4 - the republican form of government?

Upthread, there was this quote (that I haven't checked the provenance of):


Some of those already were/are executive decisions, but others of those like "seize property, organize and control the means of production" aren't powers that Congress has, so they can't really delegate them.

I only bring up Lincoln for the historical reference. He actually did executive things that were authoritarian. He exercised those powers. That was WAY before the emergencies act. Other POTUSs did less obvious things that brought us to the "pen and a phone" executive ordering.

A4S4 Was a brain fart, for some reason I was thinking the last line referred to the Federal executive and legislature.

The principle is the same, but application was screwed up in my head.

 

[T.Lex]

A4S4 Was a brain fart, for some reason I was thinking the last line referred to the Federal executive and legislature.

The principle is the same, but application was screwed up in my head.

Well, it does, kinda, but it seems to me that if it implies anything, it is the traditional powers of the executive v. legislative.

I use "traditional" only because I can't really think of a better word. The reality is that there wasn't much of a "tradition" for what the constitution was trying to accomplish!

 

[Ingomike]

Where are you finding the notion that Congress had the power to delegate national emergency response to the POTUS? Like, BEFORE they passed the law, did Congress have the powers listed in the law?

We covered that in the other thread, SCOTUS ruled it was Constitutional...

MM

 

[Kutnupe14]

We covered that in the other thread, SCOTUS ruled it was Constitutional...

MM

Here's what I think may be a sticking point. The president may have the power to declare a national emergency. However, I think the question is does he have the power to fund this wall, by taking money that has already been congressionally approved? If congress has the "power of the purse," can the president diminish that power by reducing the allocated funds congress has set aside for certain projects? The issue may be not if he can declare an emergency to build a wall, but the place that the funding comes from, when lacking consent from congress.

 

[Ingomike]

Where are you finding the notion that Congress had the power to delegate national emergency response to the POTUS? Like, BEFORE they passed the law, did Congress have the powers listed in the law?

It is the Constitutional clause immediately following the clause detailing the abortion right and just preceding the clause making Obamacare a tax...

MM

 

[jamil]

It is the Constitutional clause immediately following the clause detailing the abortion right and just preceding the clause making Obamacare a tax...

MM

yeah. this is how stuff works.

 

[Ingomike]

Here's what I think may be a sticking point. The president may have the power to declare a national emergency. However, I think the question is does he have the power to fund this wall, by taking money that has already been congressionally approved? If congress has the "power of the purse," can the president diminish that power by reducing the allocated funds congress has set aside for certain projects? The issue may be not if he can declare an emergency to build a wall, but the place that the funding comes from, when lacking consent from congress.

The answer is very similar, Congress keeps passing empty vessel laws and appropriations allowing the deep state, which is under executive control, to fill in the blanks. My understanding is the money they plan to use is from these blank checks Congress has written and have not yet been cashed. That is why the list of funding comes from many bills and sources.

MM

 

[Kutnupe14]

It is the Constitutional clause immediately following the clause detailing the abortion right and just preceding the clause making Obamacare a tax...

MM

Obamacare was passed by congress. Roe v Wade was a SCOTUS decision. Both fell correctly into their respective powers via the constitution. So T.Lex is correct in asking "where" is this current fiasco to be found.

 

[Ingomike]

Obamacare was passed by congress. Roe v Wade was a SCOTUS decision. Both fell correctly into their respective powers via the constitution. So T.Lex is correct in asking "where" is this current fiasco to be found.

So where is the abortion clause?

Obamacare was a fine for failure to perform, the court re-invented it as a tax magically...

MM

 

[T.Lex]

We covered that in the other thread, SCOTUS ruled it was Constitutional...

Oy vey.

I really don't want to dig out that thread, but that's not exactly what they said, if the case is Chadha. That ruling was on the single-chamber legislative veto issue.

If there's something else, I'd like to see it.

 

[Ingomike]

Oy vey.

I really don't want to dig out that thread, but that's not exactly what they said, if the case is Chadha. That ruling was on the single-chamber legislative veto issue.

If there's something else, I'd like to see it.

Mistretta v. US.


Was Congress's creation of a United States Sentencing Commission with the power to establish binding sentencing guidelines a constitutional delegation of authority?

they determined that Congress could delegate power. This will likely be further defined in future cases, maybe this one.

MM