N00B questions...

[SavageEagle]

Ok, I've been asked some questions that I just can't find the answers to. Well I could find some answers if I search the internet long enough but I would rather see what you all have to say.

Q1) What is the difference between Single Stack and Double Stack?

Q2) What are the differences between SAO, DAO, DA, SA, DA/SA? I know they stand for Single Action, Double Action, etc.

Q3) How do the different safety features work? I.E. Decocking Lever, Trigger Safety, Grip Safety, etc. I know theres more but I don't remember them off hand.

Q4) What are the differences between a 1911 style auto and say something like the GLock, H&K(P30, 45series), etc.?

Q5) Why are the 1911's so much more expensive than other autos?

Q6) IYHO, what makes a great CC auto, besides a 1911?

I ask these questions not just for myself, but because I was asked these by my fiancee and couldn't find the answers. I know a little about SA and DA, but not enough to explain it to my fiancee or the little ones should they ask when I start training them on firearms. Thanks in advance for all your help.

 

[Lars]

A1) In a single stack magazine all the cartridges line up above one another in a single row. In a double stack magazine, the cartridges stager right/left after the top one or two. Single stack magazines usually hold between 6 and 10 shots. Double stack magazines I've seen as high as 18 shots. (Sig P226R with factory Highcaps)

A2) Trigger Types

• SAO: Single Action Only. The trigger ONLY causes the hammer to fall.
• DAO: Double Action Only. The trigger first cocks the hammer back, and then allows it to fall. The hammer can not be manually cocked back. and will always return to the uncocked possition when the trigger is released.
• DA/SA: Double Action / Single Action. This is a combination of the above two. If the hammer is uncocked, pressing the trigger will first cock the hammer, and then release it. If the hammer is already cocked back, pressing the trigger will release it.

A3) Safety Types

• Manual safety: This is usually a thumb actuated lever. It will usually prevent the trigger from being pulled all the way to the rear. However in some guns it prevents the trigger from moving at all. In others still it physically locks the slide in place. There are as many variations here as there are guns.
• Trigger Safety: Usually some form of lever that must be depressed on the face of the trigger before the action will be allowed to move. In a Glock if you only apply pressure to the outside edge of the trigger it will not press backwards. the little tang in the middle MUST be depressed for the trigger to move rearward.
• Firing pin safety: This is an internal safety. Most pistols have some form of firing pin between the hammer and the primer, OR a striker that hits the primer. This safety engages and prevents that pin or striker from moving unless the trigger has been pressed. On hammer fired pistols this is useful to prevent dropping the gun on the hammer from firing a round.
• Grip safety: Similar to the trigger safety on Glocks, except located on the rear of the grip. Also similar to the Manual Safety not all grip safeties perform the same task. Most however seem to prevent the trigger from moving rearward unless it is depressed. Which is to say a firm grip has been applied to the handle of the pistol.

A4) In short "AN AWFUL LOT"

A5) In part because people are willing to pay it.

A6) I'd argue a 1911 does not make a great CC pistol. 1911 guys obviously disagree with me. Glock guys think we're both crazy. In my humble(ish) opinion. Unless you know that your pistol will run if accidentally dropped in a puddle, or sand box, or on gravel. Or while it's raining on a 110F day. Or during a blizzard when it's -35F. I wouldn't consider it a great CC pistol. Glocks seem to do these things well. They also have very few controls you have to remember to activate, or otherwise deactivate etc before they are ready to go bang. HK pistols have a dozen variations. Some with more controls than others. They do meet the above reliability list, as do Sigs. A great many other pistols do as well. But unless you know for sure your pistol will work in the worst possible situation.... I would not happily trust my life to it. Plan for the worst, Pray for the best.

 

[Pami]

Not to sound like a broken record, but you'd get answers to all these questions and more from an NRA Basic Pistol training course.

 

[SavageEagle]

Plan for the worst, Pray for the best.

Wouldn't have it ANY other way!

Not to sound like a broken record, but you'd get answers to all these questions and more from an NRA Basic Pistol training course.

LOL I know I know. But it's so much more fun to look like jackass on here first! LOL BTW, I'm signing up for the Basic course in the next couple months and my oldest may be signed up for Eddie Eagle by the end of the summer.

 

[Soundslikejosh]

Savage, I don't know if this is something you are already aware of, and it is a bit implied by what W9ZEB said above about Single action vs. Double action. I have no complaints about what W9ZEB said, but it may be added that the different actions each include their own amount of trigger pull. A double action trigger will have a heavier pull because it has to first compress the hammer spring. For a single action, the trigger pull is lighter because you have already manually cocked the hammer spring. On an associated note, I don't usually advocate a SA CC gun because the trigger pull can be quite light- which is a liability in a high stress environment. I am sure the 1911 guys will take objection to this, and that's fine, I would like to hear their argument. In no way do I claim that my opinion is correct, its just the one I have until a more logical method comes along. On the flip side, a single action trigger may be just the ticket for a person who has trouble managing a heavier double action trigger. As a parting shot, nobody here is likely or able to call you a jackass for being a noob. We all came from mama knowing the same amount, and we've just learned different things along the way.

 

[Lars]

.......As a parting shot, nobody here is likely or able to call you a jackass for being a noob. We all came from mama knowing the same amount, and we've just learned different things along the way.

Except that W9ZEB guy. He's almost completely stupid.

Honestly, I wasn't very far ahead of you this time last year SavageEagle. I just spend an abnormal amount of time in front of a computer.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I just spend an abnormal amount of time in front of a computer.

As do I...

Savage, if you have any other questions... I'd be more than happy to help. I live in Plainfield. Feel free to shoot me a PM any time!!

 

[Bigum1969]

W9ZEB:

I think that is a terrific explantion.

I agree with you regarding #6.

 

[SavageEagle]

Except that W9ZEB guy. He's almost completely stupid.

Honestly, I wasn't very far ahead of you this time last year SavageEagle. I just spend an abnormal amount of time in front of a computer.

You and me both. Like I've said before, I'm here to learn. and I do spend alot of my time at night in front of my computer, or a computer that I'm building for that matter.

I knew this would be a good thread. Keep it coming guys/gals/dogs/cats/aliens/whatever! LOL

 

[SavageEagle]

As do I...

Savage, if you have any other questions... I'd be more than happy to help. I live in Plainfield. Feel free to shoot me a PM any time!!

Thats awesome. My fiancee and I might hit you up to go the range sometime. We'll have to go pick up Pami though for my fiancee so she doesn't seem overshadowed or out of place! LOL

 

[SavageEagle]

As far as Q4, I understnad there is a big difference between the 1911 and other autos, but could you give me some ideas?

 

[SilentWarrior1]

Thats awesome. My fiancee and I might hit you up to go the range sometime. We'll have to go pick up Pami though for my fiancee so she doesn't seem overshadowed or out of place! LOL

Oh, no worries. My wife (BersaGirl on the forums) is a shooter too. If Lars and Pami want to come, that's fine by me. The more the merrier!!

 

[Pami]

We'll be at Eagle Creek tomorrow.

And to chime in on the DA vs SA...it's the main reason for my P250 thread I started... My P226 is a DA/SA .. meaning (generally) the first shot is a 10 lb trigger pull because the hammer is decocked and has to be pulled back, while subsequent shots are only a 4 lb pull because it switched to SA mode (and is a LOT easier to shoot). Many people don't like DA/SAs because the trigger pull is inconsistent in that respect. The P250 has a DAO or DAK trigger (DAK is Sig's newer version of the DAO... off the top of my head I can't recall the differences), but even though it's doing the double duty, it only has a 6 lb trigger pull at full stroke.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

As far as Q4, I understnad there is a big difference between the 1911 and other autos, but could you give me some ideas?

One of the biggest arguments that I've personally heard between 1911's and Glocks is the All Metal Vs. Metal/Polymer hybrid or "Tactical Tupperware".

There are some that believe that the 1911 is God's gift to shooters, and John Browning's design is the final word in handgun designs, But 1000's of police departments and 100's of countries worldwide have switched to Glock of some flavor or another as service pistols.

There are some 1911 owners that have paid $1000's of dollars in gunsmithing to make their guns not FTF/FTE, where Glock owners have enjoyed 1000's of rounds out of their Glocks without one red cent in smithing fees.

I can't speak on Sigs or HK's. I have shot both before, and both have been accurate and reliable... but I can't speak on carrying them.

There are people that carry 1911's on a daily basis... have fired 1000's of rounds fed out of them flawlessly, and trust their lives to them on a daily basis. They are a piece of history, and should be treated as such. The design has been virtually unchanged since it's inception in 1911. It's been in faithful service for nearly 100 years.

The difference is about the same as picking a flavor of ice cream. It all depends on what you like and what feels good to you. As long as it goes bang every time, and you're accurate with it... who cares what kind it is?

 

[SavageEagle]

We'll be at Eagle Creek tomorrow.

Once my paycheck gets here we're all just going to have to get together... LOL

As long as it goes bang every time, and you're accurate with it... who cares what kind it is?

That's another reason for being here is to find out others experiances with certain guns. and to find likeminded people who enjoy shooting like I do! LOL

 

[melensdad]

Q5) Why are the 1911's so much more expensive than other autos?

I have not seen the correct answer to this yet, perhaps I missed it. But it takes a history lesson to get to the correct answer. Remember that this gun was designed 100 years ago. At that time the manufacturing process was far different than it is today. Honestly if John Browning were alive today, or if he had access to the type of technology we have today, I doubt if the 1911 would have ever been designed. The 1911 was designed with a lot of parts that require extensive milling and they must be milled perfectly in parallel alignment. The gun basically takes a lot of machine work to get to the point where it can even begin to be fitted and assembled.

There are a lot of junk 1911s out there and there are a lot of very reliable 1911s. The problems with these guns come in with timing the slide and tolerances. If the slide is not timed properly then the gun won't run. If the tolerances are so tight, or if the tolerances are not close enough to parallel then you are going to have all sorts of problems

A good 1911 will run as well as any Glock and we tend to forget that the military during a couple of world wars and some skirmishes after that did not complain about FTF or FTEs because those guns were not built so tight that they had problems. A typical GI 1911 can be pulled out of a bucket of mud, wiped down and shot without fail. Its the civilian guns that get tricked out, and often screwed up, that give these guns reputation for crummy reliability. A custom 1911 can run the gamut of being amazing to being a piece of crap, and both can use the same parts but one will be 'fitted' and the other simply assembled. Its typically the parts that screw up a decent 1911 and turn it into a junk gun.

If the 1911 were as bad as some suggest then I'd wonder why the elite forces choose it over any other gun. I'm not saying its the best, I think the "best" is a personal choice and the shooter is the only one who can make that choice, but I am always amused by the people who trash 1911's and have very little experience with them. Not that there is much 1911 bashing in this thread, I'm just making a general observation about comments I hear about 1911s.

 

[esrice]

These are good questions with some good answers!

Nice post, Lars!

 

[rhino]

As far as Q4, I understnad there is a big difference between the 1911 and other autos, but could you give me some ideas?

Some are ...

A 1911 has a trigger that slides back and forth whereas most other guns have hinged triggers that rotate like levers.

A 1911 has both a grip safety and a thumb safety. The former is unusual for modern guns, although some have them.

The 1911 barrel is connected to the frame by a link (looks like a figure 8). Most modern pistols do not have links.

The 1911 feeds at an angle where the round impacts relatively low on the feed ramp, then sort of "bounces" into the chamber. Most modern guns feed more directly into the chamber.

The 1911 (in most cases) has a barrel bushing. Most modern guns do not.

A 1911 has a slide release, whereas many modern guns only have a slide stop (like Glocks) or no external slide release/stop at all.

 

[SavageEagle]

melensdad/rhino- Thanks so much for the info. I had no idea. I love these forums! THANKS FENWAY!

Another question I'd like to ask... I have a copy of "The Complete Guide of Autopistols". I've seen guns such as the LAR-15, CMMG, B&T TP9, etc... Has anyone had any experiances with these guns? And wouldn't it be a sight someone OC'ing one of these walking down the road?!!?! I'd like to just once to see how harassed I'd get! LOL But in all seriousness, I've never shot one and just wonder what everyone's take on these are...

 

[melensdad]

The 1911 barrel is connected to the frame by a link (looks like a figure 8). Most modern pistols do not have links.

John Browning, when he designed the Hi-Power, eliminated the 1911 style link. Today most 'modern' guns actually use a barrel cam design that is a version of the 80 year old Hi-Power's design.

The 1911 (in most cases) has a barrel bushing. Most modern guns do not.

True. Again, when John Browning set out to modernize the 1911, he eliminated the barrel bushing in the Hi-Power. Target grade 1911s rarely use the bushing, ditto with many of the professional grade models and many of the compacts. The bushing was used because is was simple to machine and it worked.

A 1911 has both a grip safety and a thumb safety. The former is unusual for modern guns, although some have them.

The original 1911 really needed that safety of having the dual safety system. Newer 1911s really don't need it, there are other interlocks that prevent the firing pin from impacting the primer if the trigger is not pulled but the design works and employs when you grip the gun and probably exists now more for 'piece of mind' and 'tradition' than for anything else. Some 1911 style guns don't utilize the grip safety, other have it pinned.