Myth of "Knock Down Power"

[Hoosier45]

In this month's American Handgunner, the title of the last page column is "Perfect Self-Defense Ammo?" Roy Huntington is the author and he has some interesting points. I'll paraphrase to try to keep this as short as possible.

As a cop, Mr. Huntington attended many autopsies of gun shot victims. He says it's "virtually impossible to tell the difference among gunshot wounds from .38/.357/.40/.45 and even .44 mag calibers." Obviously he has more experience than me, but one would think there would be a BIG difference in the wound cavity caused by a .38 special and . 44 mag. He's not just talking entry and exit wounds, but internal damage inflicted as well.

He also says "unless you hit someone in a central nervous system point, there's no shock or stopping power." I don't claim to be a smart guy. But doesn't one of Newton's laws of physics state that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction? So the person hit by the bullet should feel the same recoil from the impact that the person shooting gun feels from the recoil of the gun? So a .44 magnum would hit much harder than a .38 special, as evident by the big difference in recoil from the .38 to the .44? I don't think anybody believes that people who get shot go flying ten feet in the air like in the movies, but I think you would feel more of an impact from a .44 mag than a .38?

"Gunshot victims simply bleed to death. The lowering of blood pressure eventually shuts off the brain. It might take 3 seconds. It might take 10 seconds or longer." That I can understand.

Sorry if this post is too long and boring, but I thought it was interesting and thought maybe some of you would, too.

I did like one of the lines in the column, though.

"It's not enough to shoot them until YOU think they are dead, you have to shoot them until THEY think they are dead."

 

[redneckmedic]

As a cop, Mr. Huntington attended many autopsies of gun shot victims. He says it's "virtually impossible to tell the difference among gunshot wounds from .38/.357/.40/.45 and even .44 mag calibers.

He also says "unless you hit someone in a central nervous system point, there's no shock or stopping power." TRUE

"Gunshot victims simply bleed to death. The lowering of blood pressure eventually shuts off the brain. It might take 3 seconds. It might take 10 seconds or longer."

Most of my GSW victims survive much longer than 10 seconds. Most can compinsate for min. or up to an hour (golden hour)

Sorry if this post is too long and boring, but I thought it was interesting and thought maybe some of you would, too.

I did like one of the lines in the column, though.

"It's not enough to shoot them until YOU think they are dead, you have to shoot them until THEY think they are dead."

There are a few interesting points to comment on here.

The internal damage is generally called Cavitation and the damage depends on if it hits soft organs or hard organs. It also matter what else it hits, if it tumbles, or divides, or plays plinko.

Most of my GSW patients have had hardly any blood and there was no stopping power. Minus my self inflicted ones. Think of the external damage as this. Paper punching. The hole is generally all the same. But cavitation is a direct influence on both mass and velocity. And the result is a temp. cavity that expands (destroying tissues) before closing.

 

[Hoosier45]

Great reply!

So, then there really is very little benefit to carrying a larger caliber? I'm sure there is some difference due to velocity and expansion differences, but as a general rule .38 or 9mm inflicts comparable damage to a .44 or .45?

 

[hemicharger]

Correct. I cant believe how many people want to argue of what the best caliber is who have never seen a gsw on a person. Redneckmedic, Indygunworks and I can tell you that with a handgun, all entrance wounds look the same. They are small and can often be overlooked. Not once have I had a person say"Im glad I got shot with a 9 instead of a .40" The reaction is the same with a .22 as with a .45. Shot placement is what counts people. I dont know how else to spell this out to the crowd but we are still dealing with people who are suggesting using rock salt in their shotguns for HD.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

I like to believe that bigger bullets make bigger holes or permanent wound channels (even if only by MM's) and effects blood loss.

However nothing takes the place of shot placement , 150 mm arty doesn't do squat if you can't hit the target . (Or in that example near it).

 

[Jay]

The internal damage is generally called Cavitation and the damage depends on if it hits soft organs or hard organs. It also matter what else it hits, if it tumbles, or divides, or plays plinko.

Correct. That's exactly why I don't get involved in the "which is the best caliber" threads. Caliber comparisons are a waste of time unless all shots impact the same body, at the same point, at the same trajectory, and pass through the same clothing.....all at the same velocity.......with the same bullet configuration.... outside of that there are too many variables for any meaningful comparison. If you can't hit what you're shooting at, it doesn't matter what caliber you're using..... you can't stop the threat.

If you can hit what you're shooting at, you can stop the threat.

 

[CombatVet]

Think of it like the bed of nails bit. One nail will go though you because the surface area is much smaller than 100 nails. Same with a bullet. Now shooting into body armor or something else that is designed to stop a bullet may result in "stopping" power because the force of the bullet is being absorbed over an area and not just punching through.

 

[hemicharger]

Correct. That's exactly why I don't get involved in the "which is the best caliber" threads. Caliber comparisons are a waste of time unless all shots impact the same body, at the same point, at the same trajectory, and pass through the same clothing.....all at the same velocity....... outside of that there are too many variables for any meaningful comparison. If you can't hit what you're shooting at, it doesn't matter what caliber you're using..... you can't stop the threat.

If you can hit what you're shooting at, you can stop the threat.

Thank you Jay. Im glad someone else has said it too. I think most people who get on the caliber debate bandwagon have never even seen a real gsw on a person. All they know is what they read on the internet or what the guy behind the gun counter has told them.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Knock down power is nothing but a hokey myth perpetuated to sell magazines to inexpirienced suckers but if you think there's no advantage to making bigger holes in your enemy, well then go with the knock down power thing.

You don't need to be a physics major or coroner to figure this out. Just ask any competent plumber, "double the diameter = four times the flow". That's a simple fact. Nothing subjective about it.

44 cal all the way through or a 38 cal hole half way through... this just get's too silly to discuss. The only real question is can you put holes in your enemy with the gun in your hand. Once you get that far, bigger holes bleed more. Bigger holes all the way through bleed out both sides. Apprentice plumber 101, double the diameter = four times the flow.

 

[danmdevries]

I have personally worked a handful of non lethal non-emergency GSW surgeries. I've seen .22(3), and 9mm. In addition I worked a lethal case for organ procurement where the .40cal round literally blew the lung to bits.

The shot placement is most critical to determine if the patient/victim will survive. Like stated in the above article re: cavitation effect is the second most critical component IMO behind the obvious hole placement. I.E. if you put a hole through the abdominal aorta with a FMJ, the patient will bleed out almost instantly with a sudden profound drop in blood pressure for which compensatory measures will not be capable of covering. Even if they could, the type of injury sustained would lead to death in a very short time and the recipient would surely be incapacitated. The same goes for neurological interruption like a shot to the head or spinal cord.

The cavitation effect is also a consideration when talking about stopping power. In this case it was a hollow point .40 cal bullet, entered through the abdomen and traveling in an upward trajectory through the liver and diaphragm, exiting the back through the ribcage. The bullet path never touched the lungs, but when the surgeon lifted the lower right lobe, it looked like something Gallagher smashed on stage with his giant mallet. The GSW victim never had a chance, the wound caused an immediate cessation of respiratory function and massive blood loss.

For the non fatal shots, the shockwave damage was profound in one, less so in others. More than likely this can be attributed to the size and design of the bullet as well as the force of impact. Personally I would rather get hit with a 12oz hammer than a 12lb one. The .22 bullets cause no adjacent tissue damage beyond where the bullet acted directly upon the tissue, no different than a stab wound from an ice pick. They also don't have the mass to penetrate harder tissues. Two bullets were extracted from shots to the leg, one had gone approximately 1/8th inch into the femur, the other hit and bounced, resting in the muscle. They had the potential for a lethal shot by severing the femoral artery but chances are even if they did, they wouldn't be able to cause such a massive blood loss to bottom out the pressure, stopping the recipient in their tracks. The third was a shot to the arm, it traveled the length of the forearm, resting near the wrist. There was some tissue damage beyond the hole made by the round, but not as much as would be if it were packing a higher energy level upon impact. Average of 150ft lb for a .22 vs near 600ft lb for .357sig is a huge difference. That energy needs to be dissipated and with a well-designed HP round, that energy will dissipate within the cavity of a normal sized human. Therefore the transfer from a higher energy round has to spread out its impact over a larger area in order to transfer its energy in the same distance as a lower energy round

The 9mm nonfatal round was a jacketed hollow point design, I wish I knew more about the rounds than what I saw when it was removed but it had not expanded at all. The entry wound was on the lateral ribcage, it went in between two ribs and came to a rest in the intercostal space near the lumbar spine. It broke the ribs in several places as it traveled along and caused a good deal of soft tissue injury but was not immediately life threatening, however it would be an incapacitating shot for most.

That's my personal experience, take it for what you will but I do not believe the "knockdown power" discussion is a myth. Proper shot placement with a properly designed round with good takedown power will be much more effective than proper shot placement with a less effective round and as you all know, it will be much more effective than a magic bullet that doesn't have shot placement.

 

[danmdevries]

doublepost'd

 

[redneckmedic]

Ammo Selection is so much better than cal. Bonded hollow points vs non bonded, or FMJ.

 

[Jay]

Proper shot placement with a properly designed round with good takedown power will be much more effective than proper shot placement with a less effective round and as you all know, it will be much more effective than a magic bullet that doesn't have shot placement.

Granted, but shot placement has to occur before the bullet can affect the target

 

[antsi]

the result is a temp. cavity that expands (destroying tissues) before closing

A lot of this depends on whom you believe, and I make no claim to be an expert in this area. However, Fackler and others who have studied these issues in depth have suggested that temporary cavity damage is probably negligible at the velocities generated by pistol bullets. Rifle bullets, according to these guys, are a different story. There, the tissue is displaced fast enough that inelastic organs like the liver can be significantly damaged in this way.

 

[danmdevries]

A lot of this depends on whom you believe, and I make no claim to be an expert in this area. However, Fackler and others who have studied these issues in depth have suggested that temporary cavity damage is probably negligible at the velocities generated by pistol bullets. Rifle bullets, according to these guys, are a different story. There, the tissue is displaced fast enough that inelastic organs like the liver can be significantly damaged in this way.

I would not disagree with this point. The shockwave/cavitation damage from a rifle round is going to be the lethal aspect where a handgun round is shot placement and disruption of function whether through blood loss or neurological interruption.

However, like I said in my *too long* post, if you're looking at a round with 300lb ft of energy vs a round with 600lb ft of energy, they both dissipate that energy within a given (12" for the sake of argument) distance. While it may not be the true cavitation effect as discussed, there is still the need to dissipate that energy over a broader area in the higher energy round than the lower energy round. Therefore you do see the tissue damage that was not touched by the trajectory of the bullet. Whether or not this qualifies as "cavitation effect" it does have an impact on the recipient of that projectile.

 

[SMiller]

When I read threads like this I often wonder if some guys have ever been deer hunting, ever had a great shot at a deer and lost sight of it because it it ran forever before bleeding out? It's no different on a human, only difference is that human is coming to get you instead of run away and now they are really pumped up and in a hurry! It seems people shot don't die on scene, they make it to the hospital and die hours\days latter.

 

[Mgderf]

When I read threads like this I often wonder if some guys have ever been deer hunting, ever had a great shot at a deer and lost sight of it because it it ran forever before bleeding out? It's no different on a human, only difference is that human is coming to get you instead of run away and now they are really pumped up and in a hurry! It seems people shot don't die on scene, they make it to the hospital and die hoursdays latter.

It breaks down to gun control. Place your shot where it will be the MOST effective.

If you are to the point you need to shoot, one to the forehead almost ALWAYS eliminates the concern about "knockdown power".

If you still don't feel the need to take a life, the knees are a perfect "take-down" shot.

Once again, shot placement = gun control.

 

[6birds]

The Sight M1911​

I know it's been posted before, but is always a good read. Rule 25 applies here.

Rules for a Gunfight
Anonymous

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns. Bring all of your friends who have guns.
2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap - life is expensive.
3. Only hits count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.
5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun.
7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived.
8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting standards will be more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel blows the powder from the flintlock of your musket."
10. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
11. Always cheat, always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
12. Have a plan.
13. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
14. Use cover or concealment as much as possible.
15. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
16. Don't drop your guard.
17. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
18. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.)
19. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
20. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
21. Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
23. Your number one option for personal security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
24. Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with anything smaller than "4".
25. You can't miss fast enough to win.
​

 

[Jay]

Statistically, the vast majority of defensive shootings have been reported to occur in darkness, last about 3 seconds, and result in 3 shots fired. (FBI and Bureau of Justice Statictics)

Given those constraints, factor in the adrenaline rush, loss of hearing (due to no hearing protection) diminished vision (due to muzzle flash in the darkness) and center mass shots will be significantly more obtainable than targeting specific body parts.

 

[Leadeye]

My experience comes from deer hunting. I've never lost a deer and most dropped in thier tracks or took at best a few steps before falling over. Sabot slugs, and muzzloader bullets all seem to do the same thing with the same placement. I have noted that some deer, that I had higher shots on as they were closer than sight in range, dropped dead instantly. These shots penetrated both lungs and passed within 2 inches of the spinal column without hitting it. Not being a medical person I can only offer this as an observation.