MSG or Co-Op (commune)

[oldfb]

Every man for himself is a mental state that is fostered by predatory tendancies, malcontents and tyranny.

Not a mental state, but a cornerstone of human nature.

In the wild there are numerous reported events of the herd or group defending, circling and protecting the young or weak.
Even recorded accounts of the group going back to rescue a lost herd member.

Herd = Family

Small unit tactics foster a no one left behind brotherhood.

SUT's foster Mission Completion.

So I discount that portion of your statement with new evidence.

With human behavior, there is nothing new under the sun.

While the ism is bad because of the greed and elimination of incentives I do believe that it may actually be that part of those societies or groups that treats each member as valued which promotes doctors for instance to become doctors for medicine and not profit. Since monetarily there is no incentive to strive for more.

Man as well as every other life form on this planet is genetically wired to "strive for more"; without that penchant said forms will cease to propigate. Attempts of another to harness said drive is infringement and if fostered leads to enslavement.

In our MSG's I believe members quickly will gravitate to chores they are most suited to. People will trade kp for sentry duty or laundry and how soon after will the people with more physical or hazardous jobs start demanding more rations. The scavengers will demand more of the loot. When does the MSG transition to a working society. Placing value on individual needs vs the common good will test us to the limits especially if we are all armed to the teeth.

What is your definition of a working society?

"For the common good" has been used to destroy our nations founding principles.


Then do we disarm the visitors or the malcontents?

Visitors and Malcontents are transients and are more than welcome to move on down the road.


These are serious parts of our plan to discuss now. Try setting up a grievance process now .

Don't forget to visit you union rep for your ration card.

Please understand gang I am not pushing an agenda I want us to try and discuss this to help each other sort out issues many may not consider when working together to salvage the pieces of daily life. I don't want any of us to feel that I am intentionally attacking oppinions. If there is any of the nasty name calling or insults this will become non-productive.
I usually post from my palm phone which limits my ability to fully clarify every point. I apologize.
Family=MSG for this discussion.
But please explain dolphins saving humans from shark attacks or any of the other recorded instances of wild or domestic animals saving humans or other species.

Predators usually tend to prey on the young, weak, sick and the old the very groups that most of us find themselves compelled to protect because of what reason? Honor?

Small units by their very size do not foster mission completion over unit cohesion or cannon fodder the way large army tactics do.

When 4 men fight together they realize that any team member needlessly sacrificed or lost is counter productive to mision completion. Yes or No?

Most of the successful communes are very quiet and off the grid for many different reasons.
Primary reason is it is against the whole human nature strive for more ideals fostered by a capitalistic society. Is this bad? Probably not IMHO.
Is capitalism bad?

The biggest most public co-ops or communes tend to be clssified as cults.
The way the grow is because a leadership emerges that demands the members to surrender personal property to the leader and is then used for the creation of the group. Unfortunately the leaders or Alphas tend to be or become narcasistic and corrupted ruling with an iron fist covered in a velvet glove.

So how do we ensure that our MSG'S do not succomb to this fate?


The human nature you describe appears to be an embracement of the ends justifying the means. I realize that is the way society has embraced but in our group can we foster a better plan?

Working society and economy was actually my thought. Call it an exit strategy for the groups to emerge from the small world necessity of MSG life and back towards the personal lives and complete personal self reliant responsibility.

So essentially do you see the MSG as a dictatorship with the Alpha as the ruler?


I am not pro union by any means however a grievace process is what it is. Problem solving process or whatever the term.

Who decides that a member has out stayed his welcome? Is there a vote?

Thanks for the thoughts. Maybe others have some working solutions, ideas or questions. Please feel free to join in.

 

[oldfb]

George Orwell said it best. "All animals are equal, some are just more equal than others". The cream will rise to the top and the lessers shall be dependents and do as they are told. There will always be an "alpha" and a pecking order will always develop in every group. It does bother me though, that there really is no sense of social responsibility any longer. For example, if your next door neighbor lost their job and their house was being foreclosed on, would you do as was done by so many in the late '20s early '30s? Would you offer your basement/spare room to their family while they attempt to regain their footing? Then the next question, would they take advantage of it if you did or would they make every effort to get things together and move on?

Are we even aware of our friends or neighbors struggle before it is too late?
Why is it our concerrn or is it our concern?

Are we willing to buy a weeks worth of food so maybe they can pay the mortgage even though they were the fools that bought more house than they could afford if things at work got lean?

Welfare is a direct result of people no longer wanting to offer charity because they themselves have none to give or decided it wasn't their problem.
Yes or No?

Does it seem that a large group of preppers are waiting or planning (hoping)to let the rest move along or die then salvage what is left? Is that really the mentality that is most productive in our groups?

Many of the liberal welfare programs evolve out of the wealthiest or ruling classes fear of what will happen if the millions of poor decide to revolt. True or false?

 

[oldfb]

A mutual support group is not uncommon now. They are generally called partnerships and exist everywhere from marriage to business. There is no need to abdicate from the status of individual be a functional part of one. They can be formed or dissolved at will, and are usually extremely efficient.

I've been practicing with a wife, some kids, some farmers, some business people, and many others for years. I don't see any reason to make it difficult.

The difference between now and SHTF is the "law and order" will be gone and so will much of the incentive for people to honor committments, agreements or personal liberties.
However the law of the gun should offset some of these effects but I caution the belief that having a gun will resolve any but the most serious of conflicts.
I believe that those members of our current society that avoid personal responsibility will be even more adept at making it difficult all on their own.

I do applaud all that foster this group or partnership process but again caution the rapid disolvement part that has resulted in a +50% divorce rate.

In a MSG a disolution over conflict without a serious effort at resolution could
be the difference between life and death.

 

[Go Devil]

Please understand gang I am not pushing an agenda I want us to try and discuss this to help each other sort out issues many may not consider when working together to salvage the pieces of daily life. I don't want any of us to feel that I am intentionally attacking oppinions. If there is any of the nasty name calling or insults this will become non-productive.
I usually post from my palm phone which limits my ability to fully clarify every point. I apologize.
Family=MSG for this discussion.
But please explain dolphins saving humans from shark attacks or any of the other recorded instances of wild or domestic animals saving humans or other species.

We are humans, not dolphins, sharks, dogs, ants, or unicorns.
We don't speak dolphin or any of the other animal languages.
This topic is unanswerable and irrelevant.


Predators usually tend to prey on the young, weak, sick and the old the very groups that most of us find themselves compelled to protect because of what reason? Honor?

Predators in what sense, Human or Animal?

Small units by their very size do not foster mission completion over unit cohesion or cannon fodder the way large army tactics do.


Small Unit Tactics is the application of Military Doctrine for the combat deployment of platoons and smaller units in a particular strategic and logistic environment.

Small Unit Tactics are engineered for mission completion.

Much can happen between deployment and extraction, but mission completion is paramount; otherwise there is no reason to deploy.

When 4 men fight together they realize that any team member needlessly sacrificed or lost is counter productive to mision completion. Yes or No?


Have you fought together with four men?

I believe that you are confusing a military application with camping.

Most of the successful communes are very quiet and off the grid for many different reasons.

Where are the successful communes and how do you assess them as successful?

Primary reason is it is against the whole human nature strive for more ideals fostered by a capitalistic society. Is this bad? Probably not IMHO.
Is capitolism bad?

Not sure what you are saying here.

The biggest most public co-ops or communes tend to be clssified as cults.
The way the grow is because a leadership emerges that demands the members to surrender personal property to the leader and is then used for the creation of the group. Unfortunately the leaders or Alphas tend to be or become narcasistic and corrupted ruling with an iron fist covered in a velvet glove.

If you don't surrender personal property, you can't have a commune.

So how do we ensure that our MSG'S do not succomb to this fate?

Don't attempt to make your MSG a commune.


The human nature you describe appears to be an embracement of the ends justifying the means. I realize that is the way society has embraced but in our group can we foster a better plan?

Working society and economy was actually my thought. Call it an exit strategy for the groups to emerge from the small world necessity of MSG life and back towards the personal lives and complete personal self reliant responsibility.

If you are looking for an effective model, you would do well to study the social and economic trends of our founding colonies and frontier towns.

So essentially do you see the MSG as a dictatorship with the Alpha as the ruler?

No.


I am not pro union by any means however a grievace process is what it is. Problem solving process or whatever the term.

Who decides that a member has out stayed his welcome? Is there a vote?


A MSG is not designed as a village type compound or a club governed by Roberts Rules of Order.

Thanks for the thoughts. Maybe others have some working solutions, ideas or questions. Please feel free to join in.

Next.

 

[oldfb]

To the OP; Your question is, beinging haters of Communism, why is it so easy for many of us to contemplate forming an MSG that might be viewed as communistic in nature, but even as we speak, we can't even pull together enough to fight the very events that might percipitate TEOTWAWKI?

I guess in many ways it might be on what we want a MSG to be, and in the event of a SHTF situation, you have the very nature of the event as a motivator and a guide as to what you might do, for better or worse. Perhaps that is why we don't pull together more now; A lack of real motivation. Not many of us have a real sense that we are in a life and death battle, instead we choose a path that might prepare us as best as we can, yet with a hope that we may never need those preparations. Better yet, to make that preparation more a part of how you live your life, like the Amish, for example. Have the ability to cut the ties to the various grids and systems that can fail, but we do need community, that is a tie we can not cut. But in a SHTF situation, it is up to us to define how our MSG's might function for us and what we might want from them. Right or wrong, I would want to maintain the values of our Constitution, and the foundation of this country as we begin to rebuild it.

I agree whole heartedly and believe this to be the core of why a MSG will face many more struggles and conflicts that the happy joy loose group will not be prepared for.

 

[oldfb]

INGO Area Mutual Support Groups

Purpose: To facilitate and promote skills, materials and communications between individuals in a local area with the intent of a mutual response to a short or long term crisis.

Organization: None beyond a phone list and a commitment to helping others and accepting other's help as needs be. No central leadership, no uniforms, no ranks, this is not a militia.

Meetings: Gather once a month for a dinner and planning/training session. Individuals take turns to lead a session in an area of their experience/expertise or simply in something they have researched (if no-one has other training). Organizing to go as a group to CPR classes or other professional training would even be better.

Activities: Camping trips, hikes, trips to the range, and so forth. Members who have can help those who do not. Better yet, trips to bulk food stores to stock up on supplies or other suppliers of emergency materials.

Intent: To make sure that people in the same area are as possible, and to continually increase that preparedness. Additionally, to have contact capabilities between area members so that when the power lines go down and INGO goes dead, we are not a bunch of individuals sitting alone in the dark. For those who would bug out, let's work together to make that a better possibility. For those who would have to bug in, let us make sure we can coordinate efforts to mutual support possible.

To be clear, this is not militia training in the sense of small and large unit military training. This is neighbors banding together to help make our community ready if a disaster were to happen. Furthermore, this should all be fun!



I don't read a socialist doctrine in the above charter.

Here's how I see it,

I am offering to heft a chain saw, share experience, donate materials, fix storm damage...., and stand in the breach with a shoulder fired weapon with any of you who are willing to do the same should any of those events come to pass.

That is of my own free will and not by peer pressure, mandate, or utopian pipe dream.

That sir is what I consider being a good neighbor and friend.

Maybe you mistook my intentions and felt that I wanted to invite you and your a$$less chaps into a commune or cult.

We don't hear about any suceesful groups that choose to live a sequestered life unless they are infiltrated in an attempt to expose or break them up because our current Gov't is very afraid of these groups catching on.

The ones we hear about tend to be the cults because they are the most vile examples however Randy Weaver and his story shows how the Gov't will deal with a totally committed group.

Predator animal or human matters not to me.

Do fist fights with 4 men count or on battles on xbox live?

I feel that by addressing many of your points it will make sure our MSG's don't end up becoming a commune, cult or a millitia.

Sorry if I offended your beliefs or value systems with my OP.


NEXT

 

[rambone]

Living under communism (in a commune), on any scale large or small, does not come without a degree of loss of freedom. This is why we don't voluntarily jump into commune life. There are many individual sacrifices necessary to achieving commune life.

Is our military not some form of communism? After all, you have a very regimented life, with shared food and supplies, and shared living quarters. You are assigned a job, assigned gear, assigned a bed. You go where you are told to go, and do what you are told to do. You develop the brotherhood and sense of belonging that communists often brag about. And most people have good things to say about their time in the U.S. military.

So, whats the downside? You essentially lose a part of your freedom during your time on base. All men are not equal, as demonstrated by submission to ranking officers, which essentially is a caste system that all must abide by. You lose many of your constitutional rights as well. You can lose your 2nd amendment rights, ironically, as demonstrated by the Ft Hood shooting where no one but MP's and police officers were armed. You lose your 4th amendment rights, the right of the people to be secure in their persons, as demonstrated by any number of searches, or the fact that you are given mandatory vaccinations. You even lose your 1st amendment rights, the right to free speech or assembly, in many instances. It is unfortunate, but you are no longer a free civilian while in the military and especially on base.

The military is structured this way for a reason, and is very successful. But it is important to remember that it is:

• voluntary entrance (aside from drafting)
• not a lifestyle for everyone/anyone
• has physical requirements necessary for enrollment
• paid service
• temporary enrollment
• exists so civilians can enjoy civilian freedoms

I love and respect our servicemen, but giving up your freedom is one of the many sacrifices you have made in signing up. Servicemen are subject to an entirely different set of laws, the UCMJ. When we talk about the freedoms that our soldiers defend, it is the freedoms back home that are always being referred to, not necessarily your freedom as a soldier.



The way MSG's are described, they sound more like "Amish-style" living than living in a commune. I don't see anything wrong with having a very supportive community full of volunteers looking out for each other. Volunteerism has made this country great. Helping your neighbor because of Communist dictum does not equal volunteering to help your neighbor on your own free will.

Those that established a commune in a SHTF scenario would do so out of necessity, and not because it was their ideal set of living circumstances. I would prefer to live in a community MSG any day, versus being cooped up in shared living quarters with strangers. I wholeheartedly agree that any commune will devolve into lost freedoms, collectivism, and likely a dictatorship of sorts.

 

[Go Devil]

That sir is what I consider being a good neighbor and friend.

Maybe you mistook my intentions and felt that I wanted to invite you and your a$ chaps into a commune or cult.

No, I understood your intentions.
No, I don't wear assless chaps or otherwise, but that was a great response to get us back on topic.

We don't hear about any suceesful groups that choose to live a sequestered life unless they are infiltrated in an attempt to expose or break them up because our current Gov't is very afraid of these groups catching on.

That is not an answer to the question I posed.

The ones we hear about tend to be the cults because they are the most vile examples however Randy Weaver and his story shows how the Gov't will deal with a totally committed group.

Mr. Weaver was not in a commune.

Predator animal or human matters not to me.

In the context of this conversation it will matter greatly.

Do fist fights with 4 men count or on battles on xbox live?

I was referring to a combat action based upon your use of military terminology.

XBox is entertainment and a fantasy.

I feel that by addressing many of your points it will make sure our MSG's don't end up becoming a commune, cult or a millitia.

Sorry if I offended your beliefs or value systems with my OP.

I am by no means offended, I simply attempted to answer your points with personal experience.
Having been a member of a commune and a cult I take such musings seriously.


NEXT

Next.

 

[SilentWarrior1]

The way that the MSG's are set up is so that local members have a way to get help should they need it. it's not meant to be a commune or a socialist ploy of any kind.

We help because it's the right thing to do. Not because we get something out of it.

 

[Go Devil]

The way that the MSG's are set up is so that local members have a way to get help should they need it. it's not meant to be a commune or a socialist ploy of any kind.

We help because it's the right thing to do. Not because we get something out of it.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

Originally Posted by ThrottleJockey
George Orwell said it best. "All animals are equal, some are just more equal than others". The cream will rise to the top and the lessers shall be dependents and do as they are told. There will always be an "alpha" and a pecking order will always develop in every group. It does bother me though, that there really is no sense of social responsibility any longer. For example, if your next door neighbor lost their job and their house was being foreclosed on, would you do as was done by so many in the late '20s early '30s? Would you offer your basement/spare room to their family while they attempt to regain their footing? Then the next question, would they take advantage of it if you did or would they make every effort to get things together and move on?

Are we even aware of our friends or neighbors struggle before it is too late?
Why is it our concerrn or is it our concern?

Are we willing to buy a weeks worth of food so maybe they can pay the mortgage even though they were the fools that bought more house than they could afford if things at work got lean?

I think maybe you missed my point. How many of us even know our neighbors? I mean really know them? This is not welfare I speak of, nor is it communism. Welfare is when the state takes from us involuntarily and gives to those that can convince them of need. Communism, well, that's debatable. The looking out for each other and keeping the Government out of it and out of our lives that took place during the depression was neither welfare nor communism. It was something else. It was "Americanism" for lack of a word, and it is gone. We Americans as a people have been divided and are being conquered. The melting pot has boiled over.

 

[oldfb]

I think maybe you missed my point. How many of us even know our neighbors? I mean really know them? This is not welfare I speak of, nor is it communism. Welfare is when the state takes from us involuntarily and gives to those that can convince them of need. Communism, well, that's debatable. The looking out for each other and keeping the Government out of it and out of our lives that took place during the depression was neither welfare nor communism. It was something else. It was "Americanism" for lack of a word, and it is gone. We Americans as a people have been divided and are being conquered. The melting pot has boiled over.

I didn't miss your point I actually posed a question after that last snip you clipped that showed wher I believed welfare and new dealism came from.

 

[oldfb]

double post

 

[oldfb]

The way that the MSG's are set up is so that local members have a way to get help should they need it. it's not meant to be a commune or a socialist ploy of any kind.

We help because it's the right thing to do. Not because we get something out of it.

Again I agree that the INGO MSG concept is a good one.

However I was referring to many of the many other MAG OR MSG groups that require buy ins and specific levels of supplies. Groups with actual organization beyond the good neighbor concept.

Think AlphaRubicon or the Rawlings type MSG those styles were what I voiced my fears about.

I think this topic has offered the INGO MSG a venue to give voice to their merit for most stopgap or transient situations.

 

[oldfb]

Next.

Had a nice post for you Go but my palm ate it.

Share your experience and stories about the commune or military. We will listen.

Please just ignore me gang since I am full of crap, have no oppinions of merit, combat training or experience.

There are no MSG's that have buy ins or minimum prep supplies to gain membership. There are no human predators which will disguise their group as a MAG but will really be a small dictatorship where the minute you are not effective you are welcome and encouraged at gunpoint to move on down the road.

There are no groups that advocate or people that think surviving in the wild for a week is proof that it is an option during SHTF times.

There is no Rawlings that advocates building elaborate retreats with groups of other like minded individuals in hopes of surviving the coming storms.

This was not an attempt to discuss how the majority of these groups will be at the mercy or whims of the Alphas with military experience or just the groups with the most firepower.

That is all....

 

[oldfb]

In regards to the Amish and which other sucessful co-op groups.

I agree the Amish and even the Utah Mormons have had a long run and a surface appeearance of working.

However they have submitted themselves to a doctrine, belief and value system that most would find impossible to follow or subject themselves to.

In order to maintain their influence the leadership of those groups rule with an ironfist inside that velvet glove I spoke.

Recovering the past skills and individual trades is a very positive thing IMHO and in testament to their value I submit the prices these old world crafstman charge for their wares in a capitalistic market place.

However at the price of @ $300 for a knife. What would the barter exchange be in a SHTF world? A months supply of food, water or enough firewood for a lifetime?

What value will old world craftsmanship demand in the community? Hard hours of working your hands away for items necessary will force the craftsman to forgo hunting and growing to craft enough to sustain his community with goods. There by forcing him to value his wares fairly with his trade partners or he will starve or have to make less goods and hunt and grow for himself and his family. This leads to a cycle where the community grows stagnant and eventually withers no longer being ableto grow, prosper and expand.

Face it after Colonial life the western frontier world was a hard bitter lonely existence. Wich is why they started towns and communities with economic systems.

Barter is great unless what you have to trade is less desired or more abundant than what you need. Which is why the mercantile system replaced the barter system of old.

So without offending anyone here. I ask how in our post SHTF visions do we correct where our system went off track. And can we actually implement "change" now without incurring the wrath of the 800 pound Gorilla in the room.

Because as I see it that gorilla gets mighty angry at groups that upset the apple cart.

Continued later...

 

[oldfb]

BTW for those that didn't understand my referring to Randy Weaver and his family.

The Weavers were living a communal lifestyle with a separtist leaning which was twisted into a racist undertone by our lovely MSM.

He lived in the mountains in a loose community of other like minded groups of families. Some good some badish but all just trying to stay off the grid of modern lifestyles.

Our gov't the 800 pound gorilla did not like this because if everyone followwed suit it wouldn't be able to control or demand their payments.
The Weavers were targeted out of convenience or scapegoat only thos invloved know for sure.

It was alleged that the Gov't targeted Randy through an associate who agreed to entrap Randy for the agency in exchange for consideration in his own legal troubles.
The method was to convince Randy to shorten a barrel on a shotgun as a job or skilled favor.
After repeated badgering or requests Randy agreed and either mis measured or intentionally cut the barrel fractions of an inch less than the legal limit.

For this a warrant was issued and attempted to be served as a high risk warrant where the family dog was targeted for the initial assault.

His son and nephew or friend who were armed while in the woods then came under fire from the agents involved. Killing the son and wounding the other.

The rest of the story is readily available elsewhere.

My point is that there have been attempts for individuals and groups to go off the grid so to speak and our Gov't and even communities have ostracized and even targeted them for their attempt. The Randy Weavers are the "examples" to others of what will happen if individuals don't follow the plan the people in power want us to follow.

So post SHTF the powers left to rebuild will probably not take kindly to resistance for their recovery plan.

 

[Go Devil]

In regards to the Amish and which other sucessful co-op groups.

I agree the Amish and even the Utah Mormons have had a long run and a surface appeearance of working.

However they have submitted themselves to a doctrine, belief and value system that most would find impossible to follow or subject themselves to.

In order to maintain their influence the leadership of those groups rule with an ironfist inside that velvet glove I spoke.

What "Alpha" has done you wrong?

Recovering the past skills and individual trades is a very positive thing IMHO and in testament to their value I submit the prices these old world crafstman charge for their wares in a capitalistic market place.

However at the price of @ $300 for a knife. What would the barter exchange be in a SHTF world? A months supply of food, water or enough firewood for a lifetime?

You need to work on your economics.
At $60-$125 for a rick of wood (sometimes delivered) that would equal 6-7 ricks of wood for said knife.

What value will old world craftsmanship demand in the community? Hard hours of working your hands away for items necessary will force the craftsman to forgo hunting and growing to craft enough to sustain his community with goods. There by forcing him to value his wares fairly with his trade partners or he will starve or have to make less goods and hunt and grow for himself and his family. This leads to a cycle where the community grows stagnant and eventually withers no longer being ableto grow, prosper and expand.

Not accurate.

Face it after Colonial life the western frontier world was a hard bitter lonely existence. Wich is why they started towns and communities with economic systems.

It was a hard bitter existence for those that did not posess the knowledge, ability, or intestinal fortitude to sustain themselves.


Barter is great unless what you have to trade is less desired or more abundant than what you need. Which is why the mercantile system replaced the barter system of old.

I suggest that you study the social and economic anthropology of the North American Fur Trade as well as the American Gold Rush for a clearer understanding of your opinion stated above.
If you are unable or willing to do the above, I suggest you form your own method of trade or commerce for a clearer understanding.

So without offending anyone here. I ask how in our post SHTF visions do we correct where our system went off track. And can we actually implement "change" now without incurring the wrath of the 800 pound Gorilla in the room.

We need you to provide us with a complete and detailed SHTF scenari to accurately answer a question like the one stated above.

Because as I see it that gorilla gets mighty angry at groups that upset the apple cart.

What's with the animals?

Continued later...

Keep em' coming.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Regarding a barter system , I'm not sure if they're still doing it but in Argentina , according to FERFAL , a system of credits was set up using what looked like "monopoly money" , and they used it instead of real money .

In the video I watched , it looked like a flea market type venue was established where folks (mostly women , oddly enough) would come and sell their wares for X amount of the "credits" .

Their economy was / is so bad that the middle class was wiped out so completely , to the point that even highly educated folks were / are now destitute .

 

[oldfb]

Keep em' coming.

Doesn't anyone besides Go have anything to contribute?

I mean telling me I am not accurate or been wronged by an alpha is akin to saying...

BS it must be psychological.

Well there appear to be many Alphas in the past and current government that mucked up life for most of us. Does that count?

And who brought up rick and his firewood?

I am really confused now.

I intended for this to be based on a world altering TEOTWAWKI not a short lived transient event.

I feel like I am being punked by my 13 year old here. What was he wearing, what was the weather like and what did they eat for breakfast? Dude for real?
Porcupine or just a prick?

When I can see the merits of trading gold or furs tomorrow that might make sense for now let's talk food water and other essential supplies beyond bullets and beans.

ab a nibes day dare ebreybruddy
I am gonna take a valium before I chuckle myself to death here.
Night er ummm morning!