Mosul has fallen

[T.Lex]

World mob rule?

Welcome to International Relations 101. That was lesson #1.

So who won our freedom for us from the Brits while we dropped our rifles and ran?

Um.. I know you know we had some help.

Plus, the American Experiment truly had a unique start. But that was a long time ago. We should help movements seeking bring democracy to places - even places that are our allies. We need to stay principled. When we depart from that, we get into trouble.

 

[indiucky]

So for your parallel with Japan to work we apparently need to get these guys to surrender first then offer them the kinder, gentler Islam2.0? That doesn't really offer a solution to the current problem.

I was thinking bourbon, porn, cheetohs, and Elvis may get them on the right track towards life but I am often wrong. Sometimes Elvis was off a little bit...especially in the "jumpsuit" years and this may not be what we are going for....

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

So who won our freedom for us from the Brits while we dropped our rifles and ran?

Which time? If I remember high school history, around 1814 we ran while the brits burned almost all government buildings in DC, but then rallied to kick @55 in Baltimore and New Orleans. It took some extraordinary leadership and courage. I'd say Andrew Jackson had an axe to grind with the brits and he definitely sharpened his axe. President Madison narrowly escaping the invading Brits rode horseback around the countryside to give people hope and courage that America would prevail. And, they did.

 

[indiucky]

Lived there for 6 years. You're dead wrong.

[video=youtube;S4bjRh2uGuE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4bjRh2uGuE[/video]

Sorry....When I read your post this is what I heard....

 

[hornadylnl]

Welcome to International Relations 101. That was lesson #1.


Um.. I know you know we had some help.

Plus, the American Experiment truly had a unique start. But that was a long time ago. We should help movements seeking bring democracy to places - even places that are our allies. We need to stay principled. When we depart from that, we get into trouble.

So did we start our own revolution and get help along the way or did foreign nations win our revolution wholesale for us?

Which car gets taken care of better by a 16 year old. One given to him free by mommy and daddy or one the 16 year old worked his ass off to pay for himself?

Tell me how a people will value and guard their liberty if it was given to them at no cost to themselves? We aren't that far removed from our own revolution and Americans are pissing away our liberties every day. Many of our founders risked their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor. Didn't take many generations to waste it. Imagine if our founders had it handed to them.

 

[Henry]

So did we start our own revolution and get help along the way or did foreign nations win our revolution wholesale for us?

Which car gets taken care of better by a 16 year old. One given to him free by mommy and daddy or one the 16 year old worked his ass off to pay for himself?

Tell me how a people will value and guard their liberty if it was given to them at no cost to themselves? We aren't that far removed from our own revolution and Americans are pissing away our liberties every day. Many of our founders risked their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor. Didn't take many generations to waste it. Imagine if our founders had it handed to them.

Well said.

 

[T.Lex]

Tell me how a people will value and guard their liberty if it was given to them at no cost to themselves? We aren't that far removed from our own revolution and Americans are pissing away our liberties every day. Many of our founders risked their lives, their fortunes and their sacred honor. Didn't take many generations to waste it. Imagine if our founders had it handed to them.

I don't think I'm reading you clearly. Are you suggesting the Iraqis paid no price to be rid of Hussein? (Saddam, not Barack.) That seems at odds with the reporting I've seen over the years.

Is Maliki the kind of leader to inspire confidence? Not really. But that gets to my point about withdrawing from Iraq too early. We changed the goalposts to make it easier to 'win' and back out. Now we see the consequence of that.

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I don't think I'm reading you clearly. Are you suggesting the Iraqis paid no price to be rid of Hussein? (Saddam, not Barack.) That seems at odds with the reporting I've seen over the years.

Is Maliki the kind of leader to inspire confidence? Not really. But that gets to my point about withdrawing from Iraq too early. We changed the goalposts to make it easier to 'win' and back out. Now we see the consequence of that.

I think I saw on the news this morning Iraq has lost about 131,000...not sure how those numbers are counted, but yes there have been (and are) a lot of dead Iraqis.

Cutting out the Sunni from any form of leadership may well have been the biggest blunder, you must carve them a slice of the pie or they will have a big problem with you. They're not the kind to forget.

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't think I'm reading you clearly. Are you suggesting the Iraqis paid no price to be rid of Hussein? (Saddam, not Barack.) That seems at odds with the reporting I've seen over the years.

Is Maliki the kind of leader to inspire confidence? Not really. But that gets to my point about withdrawing from Iraq too early. We changed the goalposts to make it easier to 'win' and back out. Now we see the consequence of that.

So why didn't we make Iraq and Afghanistan our 51st and 52nd states and just be done with it?

 

[T.Lex]

So why didn't we make Iraq and Afghanistan our 51st and 52nd states and just be done with it?

Takes time. If they wanted to have a referendum and vote on it, and go through the process, no problem. (Check out Puerto Rico's efforts.)

But, they are sovereign nations that we invaded and took responsibility for, at least for awhile. We just didn't follow through like we should have, IMHO due to an incoherent foreign policy implemented by inept amateurs.

We should have done a better job of protecting stability, which goes back to my point about permanent (or 99 year lease) bases. We should have kept a significant presence there. Think of it like a REALLY BIG live fire training ground.

 

[rambone]

I think I saw on the news this morning Iraq has lost about 131,000...not sure how those numbers are counted, but yes there have been (and are) a lot of dead Iraqis.

I'll just leave this here

[video=youtube;x4PgpbQfxgo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4PgpbQfxgo[/video]

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

Last I checked we still have troops in South Korea, Germany, Japan, you name it. When you win, you stay. We knew that up front. I agree these people are different, believe me I know. The whole "hearts and minds" campaign is ridiculous. To change any kind of religion or mind set like that takes generations - generations. To pull out lock, stock and barrel is to not finish what you started. There's always an occupation. Always. Even more so here because of the religious/cultural stronghold. It may well be that we'd never be able to completely leave. Pulling up and leaving would bring a predictable end and you're seeing it play out now.

Bottom line, don't go unless you have the resolve to stay indefinitely. Period.

 

[hornadylnl]

Takes time. If they wanted to have a referendum and vote on it, and go through the process, no problem. (Check out Puerto Rico's efforts.)

But, they are sovereign nations that we invaded and took responsibility for, at least for awhile. We just didn't follow through like we should have, IMHO due to an incoherent foreign policy implemented by inept amateurs.

We should have done a better job of protecting stability, which goes back to my point about permanent (or 99 year lease) bases. We should have kept a significant presence there. Think of it like a REALLY BIG live fire training ground.

So in other words, we should become the England that tried to colonize the world and fought for our independence from? Isn't it, I don't know, a little hypocritical for us to fight for our independence only to go on and colonize the world ourselves? If permanent American bases are good for Iraq, how many permanent foreign military bases should we have here in the US? We Americans would like that, wouldn't we? Foreign soldiers in armed convoys patrolling our streets dictating how we view Christianity?

 

[ghuns]

So why didn't we make Iraq and Afghanistan our 51st and 52nd states and just be done with it?

Duh, cause then we couldn't drone them to democracy.

 

[mrjarrell]

Been to Afghanistan and spent plenty of time all over the southern region - you can cross that one off the list - one big s#@t hole. Believe it. No comparison to say UAE - very rich area, westernized, strong economy. Depends where you go.

I wouldn't disbelieve it, but Afghanistan is in Asia, not the Middle East. The only thing they have in common is a religion.

 

[hornadylnl]

Last I checked we still have troops in South Korea, Germany, Japan, you name it. When you win, you stay. We knew that up front. I agree these people are different, believe me I know. The whole "hearts and minds" campaign is ridiculous. To change any kind of religion or mind set like that takes generations - generations. To pull out lock, stock and barrel is to not finish what you started. There's always an occupation. Always. Even more so here because of the religious/cultural stronghold. It may well be that we'd never be able to completely leave. Pulling up and leaving would bring a predictable end and you're seeing it play out now.

Bottom line, don't go unless you have the resolve to stay indefinitely. Period.

Can I pay for this with my Visa or Mastercard?

These occupations are exactly how we will be defeated. In case anyone hasn't noticed, we're $17 trillion in debt. How do we continue to pay for this and stay afloat?

 

[T.Lex]

So in other words, we should become the England that tried to colonize the world and fought for our independence from? Isn't it, I don't know, a little hypocritical for us to fight for our independence only to go on and colonize the world ourselves? If permanent American bases are good for Iraq, how many permanent foreign military bases should we have here in the US? We Americans would like that, wouldn't we? Foreign soldiers in armed convoys patrolling our streets dictating how we view Christianity?

It seems like you are asserting it is all "this" or all "that." There is significant middle ground between "colonizing" and "protecting." We haven't really colonized anywhere for a hundred years or so.

No, this is about spreading democracy, even when it is uncomfortable to do so. Because it is better to do it when it is uncomfortable than when we have to do it and it becomes painful (like 9/11).

 

[hornadylnl]

It seems like you are asserting it is all "this" or all "that." There is significant middle ground between "colonizing" and "protecting." We haven't really colonized anywhere for a hundred years or so.

No, this is about spreading democracy, even when it is uncomfortable to do so. Because it is better to do it when it is uncomfortable than when we have to do it and it becomes painful (like 9/11).

So go join the military and give every dollar you have for the cause. Or are you like Kirk and let somebody else shed their blood for your globalist desires?

We're broke. How are we going to pay for your globetrot ting desires?

 

[T.Lex]

They aren't my desires, it is the right thing to do.

In terms of our economy, I agree that a balanced budget is as much a responsibility and has a direct impact on our warfighting ability. But, the current debt situation is the result of a metric composting ton of bad decisions, not just on the wars.

But, again, it comes back to principles. When America sticks to core values we do really well. When we stray, things get mucked up.

 

[Henry]

Spreading democracy...