Mosul has fallen

[Kirk Freeman]

How does it differ from Islam?

No Jew killing. No duty of jihad.

How do you convert those who want to fight a holy war to kirklam without bloodshed?

Agitprop, explaining the superiority of Western life. Reason, no bloodshed.

When can we end an occupation?

With Germany and Japan as a guide, four or five generations. However, we shouldn't be occupying the Middle East. Agitprop and assassination programs are far more beneficial.

 

[hornadylnl]

No Jew killing. No duty of jihad.



Agitprop, explaining the superiority of Western life. Reason, no bloodshed.



With Germany and Japan as a guide, four or five generations. However, we shouldn't be occupying the Middle East. Agitprop and assassination programs are far more beneficial.

So king Kirk will put boots on the ground to assassinate? Just not his own. And if they refuse to convert to kirklam, then what?

Main Entry: ag·it·prop
Pronunciation: \ˈa-jət-ˌpräp\
Function: noun
Etymology: Russian, ultimately from agitatsiya agitation + propaganda
Date: 1935
: propaganda ; especially : political propaganda promulgated chiefly in literature, drama, music, or art
— agitprop adjective

Since fighting isn't your thing, what are you contributing to the cause? Water colors and oil paintings? Haiku? Ballet? Koombayah chorus?

Back in the day, kings led their men into battle. Now, they hide in bunkers. Wonder if that plays into what wars a king chooses to involve his people in.

 

[hornadylnl]

Mike Church is nailing it right now.

 

[hornadylnl]

We conservatives love to lament the fact that our federal government can't manage our healthcare, retirement, balance a budget or a checkbook, or follow the constitution and not trample on our rights daily.

But who better suited for global domination and religion police than that same incompetent federal government we love to hate.

 

[cqcn88]

@Kirk. You suggest we use propaganda to get the jihadis to adopt a nicer form of their religion and you keep citing our actions in Germany and Japan after WWII.

I think that's a gross oversimplification as the current culture and geopolitical situation we're dealing with isn't anything like postwar Germany or Japan. The Japanese in WWII were nuts, kamikaze nuts, for sure but at the end of the war they were completely broken society because we fought a true total war against them. Up to and including the A-bombs. No A-bombs in Germany but we bombed their cities into the stone age, their people were completely broken. I know you already know this but we never fought a total war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam.

I think you're very much overstating the fanaticism of both Japan and Germany, particularly Germany. Like I said the Japanese were nuts but they believed the Emperor was God. Consider the situation, 2 major cities are flattened and the guy you thought was God is defeated, then proceeds to come out and say "Guess what guys, I'm not God". Their cultural fanaticism to follow their God emperor pretty much disappears right there right? I know not for all of them, but the alternative was for them to say the emperor must have lost his mind and we're still driven to never surrender this fight....which seems to mean they're going to keep eliminating entire cities with the new super weapon. Any takers?

And forget Germany, like I said, I think you're grossly overstating any real fanaticism there...how hard is it to convince people that stuffing an entire race into gas ovens and toasting them alive is a bad thing? Especially when they really had no choice in the matter.

These crazies in Iraq are not and will not be to a point where they have no choice. Short of a total war you really don't get to that point. And I will state for the record their level of fanaticism is very much a cut above anything we say from either Japan or Germany. The notion of convincing them to forget about the crazy people parts of their deeply held religion, to me, seems to be so outrageous that I would go so far as to call it a red herring in the argument.


EDIT: To clarify because I don't think I made it clear, my point is to say the emperor was ONE person. We convinced ONE person, it just so happens that the rest of the culture's fanaticism revolved around following this ONE person. Convenient for us right?

 

[hornadylnl]

@Kirk. You suggest we use propaganda to get the jihadis to adopt a nicer form of their religion and you keep citing our actions in Germany and Japan after WWII.

I think that's a gross oversimplification as the current culture and geopolitical situation we're dealing with isn't anything like postwar Germany or Japan. The Japanese in WWII were nuts, kamikaze nuts, for sure but at the end of the war they were completely broken society because we fought a true total war against them. Up to and including the A-bombs. No A-bombs in Germany but we bombed their cities into the stone age, their people were completely broken. I know you already know this but we never fought a total war in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam.

I think you're very much overstating the fanaticism of both Japan and Germany, particularly Germany. Like I said the Japanese were nuts but they believed the Emperor was God. Consider the situation, 2 major cities are flattened and the guy you thought was God is defeated, then proceeds to come out and say "Guess what guys, I'm not God". Their cultural fanaticism to follow their God emperor pretty much disappears right there right? I know not for all of them, but the alternative was for them to say the emperor must have lost his mind and we're still driven to never surrender this fight....which seems to mean they're going to keep eliminating entire cities with the new super weapon. Any takers?

And forget Germany, like I said, I think you're grossly overstating any real fanaticism there...how hard is it to convince people that stuffing an entire race into gas ovens and toasting them alive is a bad thing? Especially when they really had no choice in the matter.

These crazies in Iraq are not and will not be to a point where they have no choice. Short of a total war you really don't get to that point. And I will state for the record their level of fanaticism is very much a cut above anything we say from either Japan or Germany. The notion of convincing them to forget about the crazy people parts of their deeply held religion, to me, seems to be so outrageous that I would go so far as to call it a red herring in the argument.

Kirk will fix it with interpretive dance.

 

[tcecil88]

I guess it doesn't take much to take over a city.

Not when the residents of the city and the country are not interested in helping themselves.

 

[Mark 1911]

I am very disappointed that our government is standing by and letting this happen, after all of the men who have given their lives. I am not surprised at all at the lack of commitment by the current administration. After Benghazi, I became convinced that they have no serious commitment to keep Americans safe overseas. After the recent release of the Taliban prisoners I think they are far worse than fools. I don't know what it will take to wake Americans up, but I fear the next 911 will be worse than the first.

 

[The Drifter]

Our leaders suck ,they have not followed through to a true victory since WW2 ,All the men and woman who have in reality given there life's for nothing . Freedom does not seem to be held in high regard any where in the world anymore.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

"But who better suited for global domination and religion police than that same incompetent federal government we love to hate."Killing foreigners is why we have a federal government. As wookie hero Thomas Jefferson showed, the way to deal with people who threaten us is to kill them.Who said a New OSS assassination program or series of Ajaxes would require any boots on the ground? Like al-Qaida does not have enemies already? "Like I said the Japanese were nuts but they believed the Emperor was God. Consider the situation, 2 major cities are flattened and the guy you thought was God is defeated, then proceeds to come out and say "Guess what guys, I'm not God". Their cultural fanaticism to follow their God emperor pretty much disappears right there right?"The Humanity Declaration was AFTER the Japanese surrender, 1946. We changed the Japanese religion after we destroyed them in order to keep them in line.

 

[ATOMonkey]

That whole region needs to sort itself out. As was posted on page 4. Most of the problems in the middle east have been manufactured by the great-great grandfathers of the west.

 

[T.Lex]

The problem is "sorting itself out" tends to spill over into countries that aren't unstable.

It seems to me that Kirk's point about Germany and Japan is on the right track. We essentially occupied them for... well... we still do.

Part of the answer is permanent military bases - can be multinational - with a coherent status of forces agreement that treats our host with respect but still protects our ability to get the job done. Need to be in both Iraq and Afghanistan at this point.

But, the reality is, it is probably too late for this go-'round. We'll need to wait for something really bad to happen before we can go back in and re-do what should have been done in '91 in Iraq and any time in the last 10 years in Afghanistan.

 

[Robert Richardson]

WE still have American Boots on the ground in Iraq. We need to protect them . Just turn the U .S. Air Force loose and let them get a little payback for the ones that gave their all. Boots in the air, not on the ground.

 

[T.Lex]

haha

There's a pic of a column of these ISIS irregulars in Toyota pickups. That's like an A-10 driver's wet dream, isn't it?

 

[ghuns]

This discussion got me thinkin...

Something else to consider in the cases of German and Japanese acquiescence in WWII; We killed the she-it outta their civilian populations. Your average Joe Schmoe on the street in Tokyo or Berlin had a very real chance of dying in the war. We accidentally kill civilians today in small numbers, but we don't target them. In Germany and Japan, we killed MILLIONS, on purpose.

It seems to me that it is very hard to break a nation's or culture's collective will without killing lots and lots of people.

 

[Robert Richardson]

Yep. Bad guys in pick-up trucks would be party time for the flyboys!!

 

[Kirk Freeman]

It seems to me that it is very hard to break a nation's or culture's collective will without killing lots and lots of people.

The USSR and the Eastern Bloc?

We attacked their religion, Marxism-Leninism, and they collapsed on their lack of faith in themselves.

 

[Birds Away]

WE still have American Boots on the ground in Iraq. We need to protect them . Just turn the U .S. Air Force loose and let them get a little payback for the ones that gave their all. Boots in the air, not on the ground.

There is a carrier or carriers in the gulf as we speak. You can have ordnance on target in a matter of hours.

 

[T.Lex]

The USSR and the Eastern Bloc?

We attacked their religion, Marxism-Leninism, and they collapsed on their lack of faith in themselves.

That's a tough analogy to make work in the current world. Socialism (even the M-L version) abounds, even here in the US, and Russia is very close to back to its Soviet hegemony.

It isn't just external killing of people. Look at the Soviet transition from the tsarist empire to global power. Lots and lots and lots of people killed. Or China's transition - millions dead.

I tend more towards ghuns' point. It sucks, but that's the reality of it.

 

[Robert Richardson]

There is a carrier or carriers in the gulf as we speak. You can have ordnance on target in a matter of hours.

That's what I'm talking about.