Mom Denied LTCH ????

[2ADMNLOVER]

Update :

She got a letter from ISP saying she has a hearing in late Jan . with an administrative law judge to determine if she is a "proper person" as set forth in IC 35-47-1 and the licensing rules which appear at 240 IN Administrative Code Article 3 .

It also said she may be represented by counsel and may present evidence on her behalf .

Hiring an attorney is pretty much out of the question due to financial reasons .

What kind of evidence are they talking about ? Any suggestions ?

 

[scheesman]

Indiana Code 35-47-1

IC 35-47-1-7 defines "proper person" for you.

 

[Bill of Rights]

2AdmnLover:

I hope for her sake she gets it cleared up. Is it possible that there was a speeding ticket she forgot to mention?

Also, if ISP is checking, why do we have to go back and remember everything, when obviously, all they're doing is seeing if we listed everything they have. Sounds to me like when a parent lets a kid know they're upset, but doesn't say why... and the naive kid spouts out all kinds of things the parent never knew about.

Also, 2AdmnLover, while they cannot/will not go with her, you might check into "Legal Aid" in the phone book. They just might be willing and able to give her some advice as to how to proceed.

Good luck!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[scheesman]

Also, if ISP is checking, why do we have to go back and remember everything, when obviously, all they're doing is seeing if we listed everything they have. Sounds to me like when a parent lets a kid know they're upset, but doesn't say why... and the naive kid spouts out all kinds of things the parent never knew about.

That's easy. They're looking for honesty. My wife just applied for a job that consisted of a 28 page background questionnaire. It asked every possible question you could think of, and no one would be able to complete it without having "questionable" answers on there. And they realize that. In the end, they want to know you've been honest with them.

 

[littletommy]

That's easy. They're looking for honesty. My wife just applied for a job that consisted of a 28 page background questionnaire. It asked every possible question you could think of, and no one would be able to complete it without having "questionable" answers on there. And they realize that. In the end, they want to know you've been honest with them.

Even going by that, how would they know that she was arrested 40 years ago? Unless it was a serious crime, or habitual offender, I wouldn't think most PDs would keep simple arrest records that long. I could be wrong, but I'm usually not.

 

[CarmelHP]

I have never, ever, ever heard of any denial of a license for an arrest that did not lead to charges or conviction. What kind of form is IMPD using that requires this, and where in the law is it authorized?

 

[JR50]

2adminlover,
It won't hurt to have your mother bring letters of reference to the hearing. Maybe a church pastor, long time friends, etc. could write a few words about how she is an honorable person.

 

[inav8r]

I don't want to hijack the thread. I found a link to the 240 IN Administrative Code Article 3. There are items in there that go in addition to the law contrary to the application. (I'm not a lawyer, but after reading IC referenced above, the LTCH application and these Administrative Rules I see some confusing bits of information.

So now I think I'm in trouble. According to the Administrative Code Article 3, Rule 4, I'm going to be denied as well.

Here's the rule:

Rule 4. General
240 IAC 3-4-1 Application for license; hearing; default; disapproval
Authority: IC 10-11-2-10
Affected: IC 35-47-2-3; IC 35-47-2-4
Sec. 1. GENERAL. (1) An applicant need not list traffic arrests or traffic convictions on his application except:
(A) Driving Under the Influence of Alcohol, Drugs or Narcotics;
(B) Reckless Driving;
(C) Fleeing a Police Officer; and
(D) Any charges related to injury or death.
[...]

On the application it clearly states, "Have you ever been convicted of any misdemeanor or felony violation, including DUI?" - but I now see to the right of the "yes/no" box that there's a charges box. I guess should have filled that in? Oh crap, oh crap!

I was arrested for DUI well over 20 years ago, but the case was dismissed and there was no conviction. According to the rule above, I omitted a material fact by omitting the arrest. Ignorance of a rule is no excuse. I need to put my hands on the pink copy of my application and look at the fine print to see if it references the administration rules article 3.

Oh crap, this ruins my day.

 

[groovatron]

I really get tired of all this interpretation that we all have to do. Laws really need to be written in a form that is clear, concise, and easily accessible. So many people misinterpret the law, including those who's job is to enforce it. Putting all the laws together to form a general understanding of a paticular law subject can be very difficult and confusing. Then in the end, it's all up to the courts under influence by lawyers and judges. Bureaucracy blows.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Thanks for the ideas and advice .

I guess when she got home tonight she called the ISP and asked about the details of the hearing and was told it wasn't as big a deal as it sounds .

I guess she was told that she didn't actually need an attorney for her case and all she had to do was explain to them that it was a mistake instead of an outright lie .

I think she's going to have a criminal background check done and have her boss write a letter of recommendation for her to take to the hearing as "evidence" as well as her NRA basic pistol training certificate .

They (IMPD / ISP) stated this : D) He makes a false statement of material fact on his application. as the reason for the denial .

I think the article from the IndyStar a few weeks ago about criminals getting LTCH's has them over scrutinizing everything now since they were made to look like fools .

Typical gov type BS . Deny a woman because of something that happened over 40 years ago but let a bum with a rap sheet as long as he is tall have a LTCH .

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

As expected , this whole thing was a bunch gov type "red tape" BS .

I went with her today for the hearing and the whole affair lasted about 20 minutes .

Their lawyer presented her with a piece of paper and asked her to verify that it was her arrest record and that she had been arrested once .

She looked it over and answered yes , he then entered it into evidence .

Their lawyer handed her another piece of paper and asked her to verify that it was her application for her license and that she had made a mistake .

She answered yes and he entered that into evidence also .

The judge asked her if if she in fact , mis-understood the question about being "arrested and convicted" , she answered yes .

Their lawyer had no objections , the judge had no objections and everybody agreed that she should now be licensed to carry a firearm .

The ISP clerk talked to her for a minute and said as soon as she received the $75 she would issue the license .



Now for the lawyer rant !

About 3 weeks ago I contacted a lawyer and asked him flat out

1: if this was something she needed a lawyer for ,

2: if it was the type of cases he handles ,

3: "ball park" estimate of the cost involved .

Answers:

1: I guess that not being in a court and under oath he wouldn't give me a straight yes or no , instead , he said she could have a lawyer if she wanted .

That's not what I asked you is it , you sneaky SOB ? !

2: He said he he loves to handle these cases and knows some ISP Maj .(the superintendent , I think) through his cases .

He made it sound like they were golfing buddies .

3: He quoted me a "special" flat rate of $1,000 or a goofy hourly rate .

Not to mention all incidentals and private investigator fees to be paid by the client .

Whats to investigate EFF'R ? That she in fact was arrested ONE TIME and that she live at XYZ address ?

Moral of this story is:

No matter how minuscule you think it is , admit to it on the application .

Also, before you go hiring some dirt bag , POS lawyer , email or call around and do some "fact finding" of your own .

This way you can make sure you even need the services of one of these scum bags before you pay out ridiculess money for an 1 1/2 hours "work" .

BOO ON LAWYERS !

 

[XDs4me]

I havent read the entire post, but I believe it was said that she was arrested for yelling at a cop. which can lead to grounds for denial according to IC 35-47-4-7 which in part states:
(6) does not have documented evidence which would give rise to a reasonable
belief that the person has a propensity for violent or emotionally unstable conduct;

This the type of proof she will need to defend her self in the appeal. A letter from a professional.

Just my 2 cents

 

[dross]

As expected , this whole thing was a bunch gov type "red tape" BS .

I went with her today for the hearing and the whole affair lasted about 20 minutes .

Their lawyer presented her with a piece of paper and asked her to verify that it was her arrest record and that she had been arrested once .

She looked it over and answered yes , he then entered it into evidence .

Their lawyer handed her another piece of paper and asked her to verify that it was her application for her license and that she had made a mistake .

She answered yes and he entered that into evidence also .

The judge asked her if if she in fact , mis-understood the question about being "arrested and convicted" , she answered yes .

Their lawyer had no objections , the judge had no objections and everybody agreed that she should now be licensed to carry a firearm .

The ISP clerk talked to her for a minute and said as soon as she received the $75 she would issue the license .



Now for the lawyer rant !

About 3 weeks ago I contacted a lawyer and asked him flat out

1: if this was something she needed a lawyer for ,

2: if it was the type of cases he handles ,

3: "ball park" estimate of the cost involved .

Answers:

1: I guess that not being in a court and under oath he wouldn't give me a straight yes or no , instead , he said she could have a lawyer if she wanted .

That's not what I asked you is it , you sneaky SOB ? !

2: He said he he loves to handle these cases and knows some ISP Maj .(the superintendent , I think) through his cases .

He made it sound like they were golfing buddies .

3: He quoted me a "special" flat rate of $1,000 or a goofy hourly rate .

Not to mention all incidentals and private investigator fees to be paid by the client .

Whats to investigate EFF'R ? That she in fact was arrested ONE TIME and that she live at XYZ address ?

Moral of this story is:

No matter how minuscule you think it is , admit to it on the application .

Also, before you go hiring some dirt bag , POS lawyer , email or call around and do some "fact finding" of your own .

This way you can make sure you even need the services of one of these scum bags before you pay out ridiculess money for an 1 1/2 hours "work" .

BOO ON LAWYERS !

You'd better watch out. The mods are pretty tough on calling out people who disparage entire professions.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

1: if this was something she needed a lawyer for ,

2: if it was the type of cases he handles ,

3: "ball park" estimate of the cost involved .

Answers:

1: I guess that not being in a court and under oath he wouldn't give me a straight yes or no , instead , he said she could have a lawyer if she wanted .

That's not what I asked you is it , you sneaky SOB ? !

2: He said he he loves to handle these cases and knows some ISP Maj .(the superintendent , I think) through his cases .

He made it sound like they were golfing buddies .

3: He quoted me a "special" flat rate of $1,000 or a goofy hourly rate .

Not to mention all incidentals and private investigator fees to be paid by the client .

Whats to investigate EFF'R ? That she in fact was arrested ONE TIME and that she live at XYZ address ?

Congrats on your Mom being approved.

Not a lawyer but my For 1) That is CYA for the lawyer, if he said no and she had been denied you possibly could of sued him. 2) 3) A flat $1000 actually doesn't sound too terrible. Figure in filing for discovery, trying to get the original arrest report, travel time etc. The attorney I use on occasion told me his "friend and family" rate is $200 an hour.

You'd better watch out. The mods are pretty tough on calling out people who disparage entire professions.

Lawyers are a profession? I thought they were a parasite. Just 1 step above LEOs.


I keed I keed. Seriously it is just a joke.

 

[Coach13]

I just sent mine in and don't remember anything other than conviction question.

Never arrested, did get detained a couple times in college, held in the "Football Cell" while they called coach to come pick us up and run our asses off! Nothing major for sure, exploring the mayors daughtershe was hot, and second time for peeing in public with 6 other intoxicated college teammates in a dry county. I wonder if they find all that...... .

sorry for the hijack, thought it might make you all laugh. Sure as hell never forgot either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

You'd better watch out. The mods are pretty tough on calling out people who disparage entire professions.

You're absolutely right . I should've worded it a little nicer because not all of them are money hungry scum .

So, if your not the kind of lawyer that screws people by overcharging them for something you know will NOT require much time or effort on your part , I apologize for lumping you in with the scum .

 

[caseyc]

nice coach, sounds about right for college

 

[public servant]

I just sent mine in and don't remember anything other than conviction question.

Never arrested, did get detained a couple times in college, held in the "Football Cell" while they called coach to come pick us up and run our asses off! Nothing major for sure, exploring the mayors daughtershe was hot, and second time for peeing in public with 6 other intoxicated college teammates in a dry county. I wonder if they find all that...... .

sorry for the hijack, thought it might make you all laugh. Sure as hell never forgot either!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[taurusman2010]

They need to get rid of this so called proper person list. Even with a misdemeanor conviction you will not get your permit because of number 2 on the list. All crimes carry a sentence of more than a year even misdemeanors. Even my little reckless driving charge carries a sentence up to I think 4 years if convited. You will never serve that amount of time for a misdemeanor but they go by what you could get not by what you did get. I have a couple misdemeanor convictions from when I was younger and was declined my permit. I was always told your good as long as your not a felon well I guess not.

 

[schm00g13]

Wow. I just got mine. I had a DUI and a misdemeanor over 20 years ago. Both were expunged as a result of successfully completing probation so I did not list them.