Mike Pence has signed the abortion bill

[PaulF]

Holy ****! Thieves? C'mon Paul. Isn't that a bit extreme?

Personally, I don't think that it is...but allow me to explain.

We are all friends here. I am not posting these things to inflame or outrage. I'm not interested in trading barbs with other INGOers over abortion... BUT, if we are going to have a conversation about these things, let's at least have an honest one.

"The Other Side" argues that a foetus is a complete, individual human being. By that logic, a woman who is pregnant against her will is being forcibly occupied by another human being...literally. That human being (again, literally) consumes her during the time of its occupation. It changes her body, permanently. When it decides to vacate it does tremendous physical damage...which may include death.

If a stranger forced his way into my home, started eating all the food I stored away for winter, and then tried to burn the place down, no one would have any problems with me making him leave my property...by force, if necessary.

I don't see how this is any different for my own body...I mean, the stakes are literally life and death. Remember, jamil, I don't believe in gods and afterlives...this is all I get.

If I find that my body is occupied by an unwelcome, separate individual human being...one that certainly will cause distress to me in the short term, and possibly ultimately be the cause of my death...don't I have the right to expel that unwanted occupant?

I know some people think that all babies are a blessing. The cold reality is quite the opposite.

Women are pressured into sex. Women are coerced into sex. Women are forced into sex. Birth control fails. Pregnancy and motherhood has been used as a weapon and a method of control over women for all of human history, wherever it has been legally allowed. Free access to abortion stops that cold.

My body is sovereign. I decide what goes on in here...not you, not society. If we honestly value individual freedom, this is the way it must be.

This is the best common ground both sides could hope for.



In a world of diverse opinions, all or nothing will get you nothing. Pro and anti abortion will never agree. If the pro side thinks of unborn babies as thieves and the anti side thinks that it is a human with the fullness of all rights immediately upon conception, there is no other common ground.

If both sides can agree that reducing the number of abortions performed is a common goal, that goal could be reached. But neither side seems to be interested in that. The left promotes creating conditions such that higher abortions are inevitable. The right doesn't accept some preventative measures because their preachers tell them is wrong (contraceptives for example).



No. I think the Republicans are just being stupid. And even if they are trying to be strategic, the just right can't use the same tactics as the left. The overton window just shifts naturally left by a progressively promiscuous society. And the left can push that window ever lefter faster by using the kinds of tactics the left uses. And idiots like Pence make their job so much easier. They don't have to labor much to make a straw man of Pence. He does most of the work himself.

This law is why I'm very afraid of "evangelical" type politicians. This is the kind of law they pass when they have the power to do what they want. I really don't think this is strategic. I think this is them just doing what comes most naturally.

I completely agree.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

Personally, I don't think that it is...but allow me to explain.

We are all friends here. I am not posting these things to inflame or outrage. I'm not interested in trading barbs with other INGOers over abortion... BUT, if we are going to have a conversation about these things, let's at least have an honest one.

"The Other Side" argues that a foetus is a complete, individual human being. By that logic, a woman who is pregnant against her will is being forcibly occupied by another human being...literally. That human being (again, literally) consumes her during the time of its occupation. It changes her body, permanently. When it decides to vacate it does tremendous physical damage...which may include death.

If a stranger forced his way into my home, started eating all the food I stored away for winter, and then tried to burn the place down, no one would have any problems with me making him leave my property...by force, if necessary.

I don't see how this is any different for my own body...I mean, the stakes are literally life and death. Remember, jamil, I don't believe in gods and afterlives...this is all I get.

If I find that my body is occupied by an unwelcome, separate individual human being...one that certainly will cause distress to me in the short term, and possibly ultimately be the cause of my death...don't I have the right to expel that unwanted occupant?

I know some people think that all babies are a blessing. The cold reality is quite the opposite.

Women are pressured into sex. Women are coerced into sex. Women are forced into sex. Birth control fails. Pregnancy and motherhood has been used as a weapon and a method of control over women for all of human history, wherever it has been legally allowed. Free access to abortion stops that cold.

My body is sovereign. I decide what goes on in here...not you, not society. If we honestly value individual freedom, this is the way it must be.

Just a couple of things, the infant didn't force it's way in. So to put it this way. You invite a person to move into your house, they are a resident. Are you allowed to kill them because they refuse to move? Or do you have to go through eviction proceedings? Nature has an eviction process built in, and in all honesty from some of the stories I've heard it takes less time than the courts. Should a landlord be allowed to kill a tenant that is late on the rent, or one that they want to move out for whatever reason?

Oh and fatherhood has been weapon and a method of control, should the man be able to demand that the mother have an abortion? Or be able to state that they disavow the pregnancy and have no say and no financial responsibility for the child?

 

[Alpo]

At a certain point, it becomes almost obligatory (nonsense lowers sanity if taken in large doses) to stop listening to fundamentalists on any issue. Their judgements are clouded by overaching thematic elements. That pertains to religious fundamentalists, feminists, racial radicals etc.

You know who you are.

 

[zippy23]

This is INGO right?? All i'm reading is "govt overreach.....cost to the state....not everyone has the means to support a disabled child...." ummm.....Do you believe in life or death for your convenience? Has their liberalism infected you as well? The bill says you cant abort based on race, ethnicity, sex, etc. It provides for abortion and counseling during the waiting period. So let me get this straight...alot of people on here are upset that racism and sexism are curbed, and that a woman should wait a few hours and talk with someone and maybe see the ultrasound for the HUMAN LIFE that was produced by the act of her having sex? ITS A LIFE. You can argue not many have the means to raise a healthy child, and yet they do it just fine. My goodness, the excuses for this are very sad. I had nothing, worked an awful job during the early years of my first child. My wifes relatives told her to get an abortion..she was 19, first in her family to go to college, no money, nothing. We worked, i lived in the crappiest arpartment, we made it work. Look at the child, then think in your mind about your actions of ending that life. You can make any excuse you want, but thats all it will be, an excuse. Thank your mothers for not killing you because she might not have a lot of money in the future. wow. Thank you pence.

 

[Lowe0]

This is INGO right??

Short answer: moderates, and some liberals, enjoy guns too.

 

[oldpink]

Given that the focus is entirely on abortion instead of preventing unplanned pregnancy in the first place, it's reasonable to conclude that this is about posturing, not measurable results.

What is there to focus on regarding preventing unplanned pregnancy?
It's not a magical formula that only a select few know or are allowed to know.
Either use a contraceptive device or don't engage in sex.
But no, we must have the government hold the erstwhile mom's hand and guider her and pay for whatever she needs to have all the sex she wants without fear of pregnancy at taxpayer's expense, and if the taxpayer says she should pay the freight for her pleasure, well the taxpayer is now a bigot.

At a certain point, it becomes almost obligatory (nonsense lowers sanity if taken in large doses) to stop listening to fundamentalists on any issue. Their judgements are clouded by overaching thematic elements. That pertains to religious fundamentalists, feminists, racial radicals etc.

You know who you are.

Yeah, nothing fundamentalist or unseemly at all about the abortion absolutists.
It's only those big, bad "bible thumpers" and others religiously guided.

 

[Lowe0]

What is there to focus on regarding preventing unplanned pregnancy?
It's not a magical formula that only a select few know or are allowed to know.
Either use a contraceptive device or don't engage in sex.

We should be looking at countries that have the lowest rates of unintended pregnancy, figuring out how they do things, identifying those that might work here, implementing them at a local level, measuring the results, scaling up to the regional level, continuing to measure, and continuing to scale from there.

 

[miguel]

Fear not, Pence will cave and unsign it like the ***** he is.

 

[PistolBob]

For me this was the final straw for Pence. He has been able to f*** up every issue and Indiana has not had a single bout of good press since he came into office. Michael Pence is a f****** a******.

Hahaha...say hello to the next Governor of the State of Indiana....Gov. Michael Pence.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Not every family has the means to support a disabled person from birth to death. So now what, they're born and immediately thrown into an orphanage. Disabled children are just not in demand for prospective foster parents. And not to mention the costs to the state.

Yeah, since they're so inconvenient, let's countenance murdering them instead. It's so much more MORAL than putting them in an orphanage. (If you aren't seeing purple, you have your eyes closed!)

 

[MisterChester]

It doesn't stop the democrats from pursuing their agenda. They pass all sorts of laws that push the envelope, that try to shift the Overton Window. My agenda is ending abortion for reasons that I've espoused many times. If this method is good enough for progressives--and it is because they've been able to get many things done in this manner--I say, learn from our enemies and adopt what works.

Having said that, I realize this will probably ultimately fail. But if you don't try, you'll never win.

Not disagreeing here. This bill just points out that republicans aren't immune to the bad and stupid bug either. This bill pushes the envelope for many reasons, the biggest being it criminalizes intent that can't be proven. That's a major legal issue regardless if this had to do with abortion or not. I personally don't think that copying what your enemy does is the just and right thing to do sometimes. In this case they are making themselves no better than the democrats with their tactics.

The republicans want to get their hands on our bodies. The democrats want to get their hands on our guns. I say leave us the hell alone.

 

[Twangbanger]

...The republicans want to get their hands on our bodies...

Perhaps. But what Pence wants to get his hands on most urgently is some Fundamentalist votes.

RFRA in its original form didn't stick, and Evangelicals are making him sleep on the couch for that ignominious back-pedal. This law is his bouquet of roses to get them back.

 

[Alpo]

Yeah, nothing fundamentalist or unseemly at all about the abortion absolutists.
It's only those big, bad "bible thumpers" and others religiously guided.

Did you stop reading the quote before "feminists" and "etc"?

 

[MisterChester]

Perhaps. But what Pence wants to get his hands on most urgently is some Fundamentalist votes.

RFRA in its original form didn't stick, and Evangelicals are making him sleep on the couch for that ignominious back-pedal. This law is his bouquet of roses to get them back.

He has no reason to pander to them. The fundamentalist evangelicals were going to vote for him anyway.