McCarthy loses Speaker vote 3 times…

[DadSmith]

Then you'll always lose. And you'll always be frustrated about it.

The polity of a free society is about crating policies that work for as much of society as possible. People have different temperaments, proclivities, hopes, dreams, goals. I try to get this point across to my SIL who is a progressive activist.

The problem with activism is that a minority of people try to impose their political goals on everyone else. If it's imposed by a minority, it usurps the right of the individuals who disagree with the policy. And that's what is happening now with ClownWorld™.

But there's a conservative version of that where principled people don't want to compromise. Being uncompromising in matters of polity, because other people get a say too, unless you can somehow impose your will on the majority, that's really no different from activism.

Example: three kids want to play together. Two prefer to play tag. But one only wants to play catch, and will not compromise. The other two hate that, but would be open to something else. But the "principled" kid won't compromise. So he goes home alone. And the other two kids play what they want.

Advocacy is better than activism in a free society. Try to convince others that your way is better, but in the end, people won't all agree. And if you don't have the support, at least try to get things closer to your way.

Then we lost our country. Be prepared to compromise or end up in re-education camps before long.
Compromise has lead to this and continued compromise will lead to re-education camps.

 

[Ingomike]

I can't put a face on who is in power in dc, but I don't think it's the people in elected offices. At the end of the day I have to wonder if this is all posturing inside the beltway.

The only power of the people, and little it is, is the strongest desire of politicians is the need to get re-elected…

 

[jamil]

I proved it was true by linking people to his 78% voting with democrats leading upto the election. Yet you and the other Young fans refused to accept it.

78% voting with Democrats implies 28% voting with Republicans. So not the same as a Democrat.

Okay so you have a lever that can be switched 3 ways. A Democrat, Young, and Nobody. The nobody vote isn't a vote for the Democrat as much as it is not a vote for Young. So people who say a vote for 3rd party is a vote for Democrats are at least a little full of ****.

But. It opts you out from participating in the real choice between the two candidates of the major parties. The "Nobody" choice isn't really a choice between the two "real" candidates.

So if we're talking about the two choices between candidates. That's a binary. The 100% Democrat choice, or 78% Democrat choice? You can't actually choose neither because one of them will win. You're really saying I'll just let everyone else pick which one wins. And that's okay too. I made that choice in the governor's race. I picked the Libertarian. Whatshisface. Don't even remember his name. Because I didn't care. The plastic baptist was gonna win regardless. Because that's what makes Hoosiers happy.

 

[HoosierLife]

Oh maybe I’m stupid, but I thought you had to be apart of the House to the Speaker of the House??

 

[AndreusMaximus]

Boy howdy, during my early days on INGO I would have never believed there were so many lovers of compromise around here.

Your vote and defense of Young begs to different with being a fan of his.
Purity test?
Demanding that Republicans honor the constitution is a Purity test?
Demanding that Republicans stand against LGBTQ from destroying work place environment, schools, businesses is a Purity test?
Demanding Republicans to be America first is a Purity test?

I'll never compromise on that. There are better people than Young. You choose to support Young over Danny when you had a chance to change things.

^^^THIS. THIS 100%.

Yes, we all compromise to some degree, every time we vote. We'll never find a politician who is exactly what we want, and hoping to do so is futile.

But for heaven's sake, we have to draw a line somewhere. I'm not going to refuse to vote for a Republican just because they aren't perfect, but I also can't keep voting for someone who spits on my most important beliefs, just because they're a slight bit better than a Democrat would be.

I'm not talking about going full burn-it-all-down and I'm-never-voting-for-a-single-Republican-again-in-my-life.

But at some point you have to say: Yes, getting a Democrat in Young's seat would hurt. By his voting record, it'll be 22% worse than what Young is. But that little bit worse is a lot better than never having a conservative who is at least tolerably close to my beliefs and ideals. A lot better than eternally voting for a Republican party that perpetually marches further and further left, only a few steps behind the Democrats, and does so comfortably because they know their base will never vote against whatever crummy candidate they put up, all for fear of a Democrat being slightly worse.

And that's why I respect Gaetz for what he did. By respect him I don't mean necessarily that I agree with him; it may have been a bad political decision. But he voted for McCarthy with some very specific stipulations and promises. If he's supposed to just look the other way when those promises are broken, how can he seriously call himself a man of his word?

Yes, compromise is part of politics, and we all have to hold our nose sometimes. But there has to be a limit somewhere.

 

[jamil]

Then we lost our country. Be prepared to compromise or end up in re-education camps before long.
Compromise has lead to this and continued compromise will lead to re-education camps.

What's better? Compromise or reeducation camps. I hope you can bring yourself to acknowledge that if you have a minority opinion, you will not win. The ****** thing about that is conservatives don't know how to make the case to most people when they have a point.

The only reason there's even been a red-pill movement is because articulate liberals with platforms have seen the excesses of progressives and have been making the case against them. Stogy conservatives would never have made that progress without liberals like Joe Rogan, Tim Pool, Jordan Peterson, Dave Ruben, and so on. Of course those people are considered "right-wing" now, but only because the center has moved so far left. They still like their big government and many of the things conservatives hate.

 

[Tryin']

It is not the politicians. It the VOTERS.

It is not your or my compromise to make. You have one job, and one job only, that is to vote for the best imperfect individual that will give the best outcome, may not be the candidate most aligned to our values.

This is my disconnect. The least-bad option may or may not meet my threshold of acceptable.

Lets say I have a bright line issue. It's up or down, I don't support it. We will call it detestable issue x. If there's a dude advocating for the wholesale acceptance of detestable issue x, and another guy saying he only supports the implementation of detestable issue x/2, I am under zero obligation to support x/2 guy just because hes the best available candidate. He still supports the detestable issue.

You claim that my failure to support x/2 is equivalent to supporting x just because x/2 ended up losing. That is incorrect. I didn't support the issue at all. The outcome is NOT my responsibility, it is the responsibility of those that supported x.

X/2 doesn't reverse the course. X/2 doesn't stop the train. X/2 slow-walks the path to the same end. If you are scared of that outcome, and you prefer to punt, then slowing it down makes sense. If you prefer to establish boundaries and then stick to your scruples, you will find a sense of freedom that is impossible to achieve with unlimited compromise.

Fact of the matter, Ingomike, is that you probably have a bright line as well. It's just a lot further down the list than the others you ridicule. Eternal compromise is a spineless endeavor.

 

[rhamersley]

See the "Hoosiers are fickle" comments. But. I do think Indiana is socially conservative, but it's not a populist conservatism. They're CoC loving neocons. Put a clean cut plastic baptist up saying ostensibly "reasonable" things, and he'll win in a landslide.



BTW, a plastic baptist isn't necessarily a baptist. It is a person who dresses in self piety, clean as can be, not a hair out of place, no stubble on his face, nicely dressed, looks down his nose at non-conformity. Think Mike Pence mass produced and packaged in blister pack on sale at the local toys-r-us.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

Here is my issue with this McCarthy stuff. I believe this is similar to the aftermath of when Andrew Cuomo was ousted as governor. I've had acquaintances predict that New York would soon be on the better track, while I advised caution as something worse could take his place. (Then again these were the same acquaintances having parties that Trump would be president before November of 2020) Point is, anything can happen in chaos, both good or bad. It's like throwing a deck of cards into the air and expecting all the aces to land face up. Don't celebrate until the fat lady sings as they say. I'm not necessarily a fan of McCarthy, but I'm very cautious that anything good will come out of this.

The second big thing is this is all an assumption congress isn't some big bread and circus already. The way I see it, the government, especially federal government, is a machine now designed to look after its own interest. It's filled with unelected bureaucracy, shadow fronts, contractors, and even NGO's that are focused on things from money laundering to tracking everything about individual citizens. We can find the perfect candidate (which I doubt exists), send them to DC, but I doubt anything would really come of it. The most they could do would maybe be another resistance point. I've once heard someone give the analogy of throwing a kitten into a woodchipper and expecting to get a cat out the other end. The problem is not the purity of the kitten, the problem is the machine.

That is to say voting isn't useless. I'll take resistance at the very least, but I believe local politics are far more important. Voting out corrupt Soros DA's did far more good for the country than getting someone new to congress IMO. Not only that, but as the country continues to balkanize, I believe the front will soon shift to state politics, and then local politics. But then again I'm a cynic, and that the problems we face are beyond anyone's capability of fixing.

 

[DadSmith]

78% voting with Democrats implies 28% voting with Republicans. So not the same as a Democrat.

Okay so you have a lever that can be switched 3 ways. A Democrat, Young, and Nobody. The nobody vote isn't a vote for the Democrat as much as it is not a vote for Young. So people who say a vote for 3rd party is a vote for Democrats are at least a little full of ****.

But. It opts you out from participating in the real choice between the two candidates of the major parties. The "Nobody" choice isn't really a choice between the two real candidates.

So if we're talking about the real choice, 100% Democrat or 78% Democrat? You can't actually choose neither because one of them will win. You're really saying I don't want to choose which one. And that's okay too. I made that choice in the governor's race. I picked the Libertarian. Whatshisface. Don't even remember his name. Because I didn't care. The plastic baptist was gonna win regardless. Because that's what makes Hoosiers happy.

So the following Democrats are Republicans by your standards as they have similar voting record as Young.
Joe Manchin
Tammy Baldwin
Edward Markey
Jon Tester
Peter Welch

 

[DadSmith]

What's better? Compromise or reeducation camps. I hope you can bring yourself to acknowledge that if you have a minority opinion, you will not win. The ****** thing about that is conservatives don't know how to make the case to most people when they have a point.

The only reason there's even been a red-pill movement is because articulate liberals with platforms have seen the excesses of progressives and have been making the case against them. Stogy conservatives would never have made that progress without liberals like Joe Rogan, Tim Pool, Jordan Peterson, Dave Ruben, and so on. Of course those people are considered "right-wing" now, but only because the center has moved so far left. They still like their big government and many of the things conservatives hate.

I just stated compromise will lead to re-education camps. So keep on compromising and if you do not change to woke you will be in one if compromise continues.

 

[jamil]

In 2024 you'll likely have a choice between a porn star ****er and a daughter ****er. I mean. I'd rather not have to vote for a porn star ****er, but I think it's better than voting for the daughter ****er.

One of those will win. Voting for a third party isn't gonna change the real choice we have in front of us.

The other choices aren't that different either. Young. I don't have any reason to believe he's a porn start ****er. Voting 78% (I'll take your word for it) with the party of daughter ****ers isn't appealing. It's not 100% either. At least I get 28% not voting with daughter ****ers. Even if that 3rd party person is 0% voting with daughter ****ers, I'm sorry, but that's not one of the two choices you get. It's the "I can't bring myself to vote for one of the two" choices.

I want Young gone too. The time to do that is primaries, as I said.

 

[jamil]

So the following Democrats are Republicans by your standards as they have similar voting record as Young.
Joe Manchin
Tammy Baldwin
Edward Markey
Jon Tester
Peter Welch

I mean, what does that even mean? I haven't defined anyone as "Republican". I just said 78% isn't the same as 100%. Hopefully you got the point but this reply does not give me confidence.

 

[rhamersley]

 

[jamil]

I just stated compromise will lead to re-education camps. So keep on compromising and if you do not change to woke you will be in one if compromise continues.

One of two choices will win a given election at that level. You don't have the choice you think you do. If either one of those choices brings about re-education camps, you can't vote your way out of that.

If 10 people out of 100 say, I vote no re-education camps dammit!!

The 90 then vote to send you to a re-education camp. I don't know what you don't understand about outnumbered.

 

[DadSmith]

In 2024 you'll likely have a choice between a porn star ****er and a daughter ****er. I mean. I'd rather not have to vote for a porn star ****er, but I think it's better than voting for the daughter ****er.

One of those will win. Voting for a third party isn't gonna chance the real choice we have in front of us.

The other choices aren't that different either. Young. I don't have any reason to believe he's a porn start ****er. But voting 78% (I'll take your word for it) with the party of daughter ****ers isn't appealing, but it's not 100% either. At least I get 28%. If that 3rd party person is 0%, I'm sorry but that's not one of the two choices. It's the "I can't bring myself to vote for one of the two" choices.

I want Young gone too. The time to do that is primaries, as I said.

Agree on primaries.
We had a chance to get someone different on the ballot, but people wanted young instead of getting Danny a few hundred signatures in each district.
Next time we here need to help him as I did to try to effect change. It takes an hour or less of peoples time to do so.
Also the Republican party stopped him from getting on the ballot in the Indianapolis district by delaying signature validation.
So next time get his signatures in sooner so if need be he can get a court order to force them to validate signatures.

 

[DadSmith]

One of two choices will win a given election at that level. You don't have the choice you think you do. If one of those choices brings about re-education camps, you can't vote your way out of that.

If 10 people out of 100 say, I vote no re-education camps dammit!!

The 90 then vote to send you to a re-education camp. I don't know what you don't understand about outnumbered.

You are not understanding my point. Compromise has lead us to this point in our country. Continuing to Compromise will lead to re-education camps.

 

[AndreusMaximus]

...but I believe local politics are far more important. Voting out corrupt Soros DA's did far more good for the country than getting someone new to congress IMO. Not only that, but as the country continues to balkanize, I believe the front will soon shift to state politics, and then local politics.

Absolutely 100% agreed.

Just look at the 2020 COVID madness. Even here in Monroe County, one of the most entrenched seats of left-wing clown-world madness in Indiana, there were still businesses that stayed open, and let everyone walking in the doors make their own decision on if they wanted to wear a mask, wipe their hands, walk what direction in which aisle, or whatever the heck else. And nobody shut them down, because the Monroe County sheriff came out and said that they weren't enforcing "health mandates."

So much of the harm that can be done by evil laws comes down to those who enforce the laws, and that's most often your local police department of sheriff's office. Local positions matter. They matter a lot, and I believe they are going to keep mattering more and more.

 

[jamil]

View attachment 303341

Okay. I'm not even gonna quibble about what is "liberty" about the scoring. I'll just assume it at face value.

So then the best thing to do is primary his ass with a candidate you like, but one who can beat the Democrat among fickle Neocon Hoosiers.

Short of that, it's a vote for 52% or 0%. Those are exactly the two choices. Which is higher?

 

[jamil]

You are not understanding my point. Compromise has lead us to this point in our country. Continuing to Compromise will lead to re-education camps.

I get that you're saying that. I'm saying you're incorrect. Compromise is a fact of life. Taking your football home means you're not even playing in the game that's being played. We have re-education camps on the table because humans are highly hackable. When all the possible choices lead to re-education camps, the underlying problem is actually apparent. It has nothing to do with whether you take your football and go home, or not.