Market "Fairness" Act passes cloture

[IndyGunworks]

If I can't compete in the marketplace, I'll get the government to help me.

I truly don't think this is about getting the gov't to help them. Its taking the tax reporting burden off the customer (because they never report it) and placing it on someone that is more likely to actually pay what is owed.

Its like speed limits. If it was NEVER enforced, not once ever, then clearly nobody would pay any attention to speed limit signs. but you put a police officer out there any all the sudden everyone says hey, maybe I should follow the law. This is no different (well sorta, it may not be the best analogy).


While I agree it will not "boost" the economy, I doubt it will hurt it. Mom and pop businesses are the backbone of the country and employ more people than the large corperations. This bill will do nothing but help them compete by eliminating people ability to circumvent the tax's that they owe. If they have to pay the tax's anyways AND additional shipping, why not just buy it from the store down the road?

I understand my opinion is not popular here because it will be taking money out of people pockets who have enjoyed the luxury of being able to skirt around paying sales tax, but I really think it will help and I support it 100 percent.

 

[hornadylnl]

A few things you are missing. Number one, most of the smaller mom and pop shops PAY shipping to get their items into their store to sell, and the slightly higher listed price reflects the additional cost of shipping, its just not added on after its put in the cart and you go to check out. Most gunshops pay about 10-15 dollars to get a handgun shipped to them from the distributor. So the point about shipping is minimal at best. The products are just listed higher to include this additional cost.


If paying an additional 7 percent will leave people w/ less money to spend at brick and mortars, is your stance, then that indicates that their money is FIRST spent online, and whatever is left over is spent locally. If that's the case then this bill WILL help brick and mortars because there will no longer be a huge difference in the cost of the product making mom and pops more likely to get the first shot at a sale.

And the mom and pop gun dealers shipping cost is offset by their transfer fee when you have buds ship your gun to them. And buds is still cheaper.

 

[hornadylnl]

I truly don't think this is about getting the gov't to help them. Its taking the tax reporting burden off the customer (because they never report it) and placing it on someone that is more likely to actually pay what is owed.

Its like speed limits. If it was NEVER enforced, not once ever, then clearly nobody would pay any attention to speed limit signs. but you put a police officer out there any all the sudden everyone says hey, maybe I should follow the law. This is no different (well sorta, it may not be the best analogy).


While I agree it will not "boost" the economy, I doubt it will hurt it. Mom and pop businesses are the backbone of the country and employ more people than the large corperations. This bill will do nothing but help them compete by eliminating people ability to circumvent the tax's that they owe. If they have to pay the tax's anyways AND additional shipping, why not just buy it from the store down the road?

I understand my opinion is not popular here because it will be taking money out of people pockets who have enjoyed the luxury of being able to skirt around paying sales tax, but I really think it will help and I support it 100 percent.

Small businesses don't support these bills because they think the government is being cheated. They support them to make themselves more competitive.

 

[IndyGunworks]

And the mom and pop gun dealers shipping cost is offset by their transfer fee when you have buds ship your gun to them.

I disagree. Many people will see what buds is selling for that price and just assume that they cannot get it any cheaper from the LGS. Once you factor in shipping and tax, the gunshop can normally come pretty close to that price, maybe a few dollars higher because of extra overhead, but really close nonetheless. If they charge 25 dollars to transfer lets say a 1,000 dollar rifle, then they are making a 2.5 percent profit. If they could sell you the same gun for say 1,075 they they are realistically ALOT closer to the 20-30 percent margin that is needed to stay in business because they will be getting the rifle for wholesale and the profit margin goes in the gun shops pocket, not the online retailers. There is a reason people don't open complete store fronts w/ inventory and employees just to do transfers.

Unfortunatly most people don't even ask for the gun shop to give a price quote on an item from a place like buds because they compare it to other online retailers or gunbroker and see that its significantly cheaper so they just buy it THEN go about the transfer w/out ever even giving the gun shop a chance to compete.

 

[NathanJefferson]

Small businesses don't support these bills because they think the government is being cheated. They support them to make themselves more competitive.

^
How does the saying go? In socialism everyone is equal in their sorrows, or something like that? This bill is about dragging others down to a lower level, not lifting up the smaller retailers.

Rent seeking.

 

[IndyGunworks]

^
How does the saying go? In socialism everyone is equal in their sorrows, or something like that? This bill is about dragging others down to a lower level, not lifting up the smaller retailers.

Rent seeking.

So its socialism to pass something that prevents you from being able to circumvent paying the tax's that you legally owe? Take an issue w/ sales tax in general I will not argue that point at all, I am a firm believer in the fair tax system. But this bill is not about dragging others down to a lower level, its about people not being honest enough to pay the tax's that they owe and putting a system in place that prevents people from failing to report it. I firmly believe it will help the smaller retailers as well. Ask the owner of your LGS what they think about internet sales tax next time you are in there, I bet they support it 100 percent.

 

[IndyGunworks]

let me add that I do not support the tax being charged based on where the item shipped from. I believe that WOULD be detrimental. I think it should be charged based on where you are having it shipped to so its the same sales tax that you would have to pay should you be honest enough to report it on your tax's.

I also believe that a system needs to be developed to make it simple for this to work. IE a database that is updated annually by each municipality. If its not updated by april 15th each year then that following year it goes to 0%. that IMHO if its utilized properly will allow these companies computers to automatically keep track of what sales tax goes to which state, and will keep the system up to date. But who knows the gov't will probably find a way to make it as cumbersome as possible.

 

[Trigger Time]

Or just go to this gun shop In greenwood and they will only charge you a $15 transfer fee and if you are active duty military or a veteran it's only $10.

Nice guys and not greedy. Great selection too.

U.S. Defense Solutions
5329 mt. Pleasant north st
Greenwood, in

 

[NathanJefferson]

So its socialism to pass something that prevents you from being able to circumvent paying the tax's that you legally owe? Take an issue w/ sales tax in general I will not argue that point at all, I am a firm believer in the fair tax system. But this bill is not about dragging others down to a lower level, its about people not being honest enough to pay the tax's that they owe and putting a system in place that prevents people from failing to report it. I firmly believe it will help the smaller retailers as well. Ask the owner of your LGS what they think about internet sales tax next time you are in there, I bet they support it 100 percent.

I should have been more clear in my post, I don't mean to make a direct comparison of the sales tax to socialism. I mean the comparison to be about how those who support this bill would rather drag others down instead of lifting themselves up.

If the sales tax is the only thing hurting your business compared to online businesses then you should work to eliminate or lower your states sales tax instead of forcing people into a rigged compliance game that hurts business overall.

The whole thing reminds me of a he said/she said fight that you hear in middle school. Both sides keep flinging insults until both sides lose.

 

[NathanJefferson]

let me add that I do not support the tax being charged based on where the item shipped from. I believe that WOULD be detrimental. I think it should be charged based on where you are having it shipped to so its the same sales tax that you would have to pay should you be honest enough to report it on your tax's.

I also believe that a system needs to be developed to make it simple for this to work. IE a database that is updated annually by each municipality. If its not updated by april 15th each year then that following year it goes to 0%. that IMHO if its utilized properly will allow these companies computers to automatically keep track of what sales tax goes to which state, and will keep the system up to date. But who knows the gov't will probably find a way to make it as cumbersome as possible.

Your second paragraph is why I don't support this bill at all. From what I've read a business is responsible for all levels of sales tax. Not just 50 different state taxes but 1000's if not 10,000's of local taxes heaped in there too.

 

[IndyGunworks]

I don't think we will ever agree on the issue. But I have thought long and hard about it for many years, and have hoped such a thing would happen. Sure there are merits to both sides of the fence and I truly understand where you are coming from. But in the end I think its best to have this pass.

OR,

lets look at it the other way around.

Make mom and pops business's STOP collecting sales tax. make the burden of sales tax reporting on the consumer ACCROSS THE BOARD. no more paying sales tax in state either, but you report what you purchased locally just as you would online purchases. That would level out the playing field in the exact same manner and I would be ok w/ that also. I am not for paying more sales tax, but I am for fairness across the board in how it gets collected/reported.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Your second paragraph is why I don't support this bill at all. From what I've read a business is responsible for all levels of sales tax. Not just 50 different state taxes but 1000's if not 10,000's of local taxes heaped in there too.

Which is why I think interstate sales tax should be based on the state sales tax rate and go to the state gov't NOT based on individual municipalites. I am not the person to work out or even discuss the details. See my post before this for an alternative solution that I think both of us would agree upon.

 

[hornadylnl]

IGW, do you support the ban on Sunday alcohol sales? Mom and pop want the ban to make them more competitive, not because they care about your religion. In both cases, mom and pop are seeking nothing more than a barrier for their competition.

 

[IndyGunworks]

IGW, do you support the ban on Sunday alcohol sales? Mom and pop want the ban to make them more competitive, not because they care about your religion. In both cases, mom and pop are seeking nothing more than a barrier for their competition.

If Sunday alcohol sales applied to ONLY certain portions of the industry and not others THEN I think you would have a valid comparison. But under the current system I don't think its a proper analogy. BOTH grocery stores AND liquor stores are loosing sales by not being open on sunday.

BUT to answer your question anyways

I don't support them at all. And if sales were allowed on Sunday I don't think it would hurt mom and pop liquor stores near as much as they claim it would.

As such, I only purchase my liquor and beer from grocery stores because I do not support the resistance against the sunday sales ban.

 

[hornadylnl]

If Sunday alcohol sales applied to ONLY certain portions of the industry and not others THEN I think you would have a valid comparison. But under the current system I don't think its a proper analogy. BOTH grocery stores AND liquor stores are loosing sales by not being open on sunday.

BUT to answer your question anyways

I don't support them at all. And if sales were allowed on Sunday I don't think it would hurt mom and pop liquor stores near as much as they claim it would.

As such, I only purchase my liquor and beer from grocery stores because I do not support the resistance against the sunday sales ban.

So mom and pop gun shops seeking barriers against their competition is a good thing but mom and pop liquor stores seeking barriers to competition is a bad thing?

 

[IndyGunworks]

I don't consider this bill seeking barriers against their competition. Apples and oranges. I consider this bill a fix for the fact that a vast majority of the people circumvent the legal tax's that they owe.

If the law stated that stores whose majority of profit came from alcohol sales could not sell on sunday, but exempted grocery stores, THEN you would have a valid point, but the law about sunday sales applies evenly across the board, and regardless of who it benefits its enforced evenly, even if I think its a silly law.

same w/ sales tax. If it were enforced evenly across the board no matter which way you swing it then I am for it.

Either way you look at it, if the bill doesn't pass then the internet sales companies get the barrier that helps them out but hurts mom and pop. If it passes AT LEAST it will be enforced evenly across the board.

If I thought the sole purpose of the bill was to aid mom and pops stores business then I would not approve.

I DO approve in the fact that this measure will ensure that tax law is enforced evenly across the board, and a by product of that fairness will be mom and pop shops will no longer be inhibited by a law that is not enforced evenly.

 

[Trigger Time]

I just think people (citizens) who support this bill are the types who are jealous when the neighbor gets a new car. You can't so you try to sabotage his success.
That's just my opinion on the matter.

We all know why the govt wants it. Because they are flat broke so they wanna drain our pockets till there is nothing left.

 

[traderdan]

There has NEVER been a beneficial side to any tax increase,anywhere,anytime.We are over governed everywhere! Brick and mortar stores,(gun shops) have a distinct advantage over online firearm sellers. They can make a significant amount of money taking trade-ins. We need to stop feeding this ravenous monster called the Federal Government,until it shrinks to a reasonable size. (I know...I am only dreaming!)

 

[IndyGunworks]

I just think people (citizens) who support this bill are the types who are jealous when the neighbor gets a new car. You can't so you try to sabotage his success.
That's just my opinion on the matter.

We all know why the govt wants it. Because they are flat broke so they wanna drain our pockets till there is nothing left.

Yes, you caught me, because I support this bill that means I am the jealous of what others have type. Anybody that has met me knows I am a very down to earth humble person. I live w/in my means w/out extravagance. I think this is the type of attack the left wingers or anti gunners would make. Don't have a valid point to make so they resort to making the other side look bad to invalidate their point.

At least I am actually contributing to this thread and having an honest discussion about it.

I think anyone who disagrees with this bill is the no matter what its bad since the gov't wants it crowd.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yes, you caught me, because I support this bill that means I am the jealous of what others have type. Anybody that has met me knows I am a very down to earth humble person. I live w/in my means w/out extravagance. I think this is the type of attack the left wingers or anti gunners would make. Don't have a valid point to make so they resort to making the other side look bad to invalidate their point.

At least I am actually contributing to this thread and having an honest discussion about it.

I think anyone who disagrees with this bill is the no matter what its bad since the gov't wants it crowd.

i didn't say your name but I stated my opinion like you stated yours. Your coming here telling me you agree with people coming and stealing my money. Do you think I'm gonna post statements like: can we be best friends for life and sing stories around the camp fire?

Sorry, I don't like people who take what I worked for or support those who do.