Manhunt: Police shoot innocent people looking for suspect

[fireblade]

Not my concern. I know a lot of law enforcement in various levels around the country and have a good understanding of their mindset, training, protocols.

I just know there's two sides to every story and while I'm typically the FIRST to judge unjust acts in law enforcement, I know enough about THIS situation to know that I know nowhere NEAR enough (based on media) to judge what actually happened in this instance. Typically, I'd be right on the "burn em and hang em high" bandwagon with you.

It shocks me that fellow Americans, particularly vets and gun owners, are so quick to judge a situation based on media reporting when we all know how inaccurate, biased, and intentionally misleading they are.

This action by the police firing on this truck was not done in a good mindset , or to there training or department protocols......i use my own background and experience to make my judgement not media ......as a young man i worked IA for a department .... then went active duty army and stayed there until 2010 retired .....etc... just by the picture of the truck and surrounding area direction of fire etc. descriptions of the shot victims tells me more then the media ever can ......

 

[hornadylnl]

Not my concern. I know a lot of law enforcement in various levels around the country and have a good understanding of their mindset, training, protocols.

I just know there's two sides to every story and while I'm typically the FIRST to judge unjust acts in law enforcement, I know enough about THIS situation to know that I know nowhere NEAR enough (based on media) to judge what actually happened in this instance. Typically, I'd be right on the "burn em and hang em high" bandwagon with you.

It shocks me that fellow Americans, particularly vets and gun owners, are so quick to judge a situation based on media reporting when we all know how inaccurate, biased, and intentionally misleading they are.

The judgements being made here aren't risking the lives of innocents like the judgements of the officers that fired on these vehicles. Their judgment could have ended in their deaths yet you're more critical of our judgements.

 

[the1kidd03]

This action by the police firing on this truck was not done in a good mindset , or to there training or department protocols......i use my own background and experience to make my judgement not media ......as a young man i worked IA for a department .... then went active duty army and stayed there until 2010 retired .....etc... just by the picture of the truck and surrounding area direction of fire etc. descriptions of the shoot victims tells me more then the media ever can ......

Well, that's your judgement from media provided information over 1k miles away. IMO, not enough to end a man's career on or otherwise condemn him.

At face value of information the media has presented, I would agree but I also know they aren't reporting hardly ANY of the details so I doubt what they ARE reporting is 100% truthful or accurate. Often, real life isn't controversial enough to sell advertisements and gain followers. Hence, they don't report it truthfully.

Take it for what you will, but none if it is proof enough to crucify a man as presented yet everyone is entitled to an opinion. That only becomes a problem when enough opinions come to sway that of those who WILL have an affect on the perpetrator's (officers') lives.

 

[the1kidd03]

The judgements being made here aren't risking the lives of innocents like the judgements of the officers that fired on these vehicles. Their judgment could have ended in their deaths yet you're more critical of our judgements.

No, I'm merely proposing that taking such quick judgements in this fashion is no different than another demographic of the country having an effect on those who's judgements DO affect the involved parties, such as the Treyvon Martin incident.

People are quick to jump to conclusions which they derive from media content. Yet, we all know that is rarely accurate, truthful, and NOT misleading. With enough outcry of this fashion, it indeed can come to bear on the outcome of due process.

Granted, most LE communities need some dramatic revision in ethics, holding their own members accountable, and eliminating the "blue line" but that is still not to say we should remove all faith in the higher community officials in that area who can command a more ethical outcome in the due process.

I agree that this is a deeply controversial and highly questionable set of circumstances. I DISAGREE however that this should induce a level of community outcry that could sway opinions of jurors to base meaningful judgements on raw emotion rather than facts.

 

[fireblade]

lol there not getting crucified trust me if it was just a civilian they would have been arrested already ....but this was done in the line of duty and must go through the investigation protocols...before any charges are made etc. .....they have a higher burden of proof then the average civilian which is why some call it a double standard.....

example:
‘We Have the Right to Defend Ourselves’: Community Rallies Around Utah Man Arrested for Shooting at Burglar | TheBlaze.com


well lets just agree to disagree

 

[the1kidd03]

lol there not getting crucified trust me if it was just a civilian they would have been arrested already ....but this was done in the line of duty and must go through the investigation protocols...before any charges are made etc. .....they have a higher burden of proof then the average civilian which is why some call it a double standard.....

example:
‘We Have the Right to Defend Ourselves’: Community Rallies Around Utah Man Arrested for Shooting at Burglar | TheBlaze.com


well lets just agree to disagree

I don't think we disagree really. I just am not so quick to judge in this instance since the media is not giving any real details other than a couple images from one perspective.

I don't like the circumstance either, but after talking to someone working the area and having been in such confusing situations, it's difficult to condemn someone without having actually been there. While I disagree with a great deal of what most LE does or how they act, I do TRY to give as much benefit of a doubt as I can based on evidence I have. With what's presented, I know there is only enough to be MORE dangerous to the situation and the real decision making should be left the the IA investigators that actually get to see the real evidence in person.

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't think we disagree really. I just am not so quick to judge in this instance since the media is not giving any real details other than a couple images from one perspective.

I don't like the circumstance either, but after talking to someone working the area and having been in such confusing situations, it's difficult to condemn someone without having actually been there. While I disagree with a great deal of what most LE does or how they act, I do TRY to give as much benefit of a doubt as I can based on evidence I have. With what's presented, I know there is only enough to be MORE dangerous to the situation and the real decision making should be left the the IA investigators that actually get to see the real evidence in person.

Yet these Leo's judged and sentenced to death 2 women who had in common with the suspect that they drove a vehicle that had 4 doors and a bed on it. Where's their due process?

 

[Hookeye]

Geeesh, 40+ rounds fired and they score no kill?

That's pretty crappy.

The Toyota must have been armored.

 

[Lycurgus]

I don't think we disagree really. I just am not so quick to judge in this instance since the media is not giving any real details other than a couple images from one perspective.
.

What have you heard that differs from this?

Protect and Serve: LAPD Officers Open Fire on Innocent Women - Shotgun News


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fHeICQpCGrI#!








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[hornadylnl]

What have you heard that differs from this?

Protect and Serve: LAPD Officers Open Fire on Innocent Women - Shotgun News


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fHeICQpCGrI#!








.









.

Or this?

Women shot during LAPD ex-cop manhunt had no warning, lawyer says - U.S. News

"No command, no instruction, no warning. They just opened fire on them," said Glen Jonas, who is representing Emma Hernandez, 71, and Margie Carranza, 47, in possible legal action against the Los Angeles Police Department.

 

[the1kidd03]

Yet these Leo's judged and sentenced to death 2 women who had in common with the suspect that they drove a vehicle that had 4 doors and a bed on it. Where's their due process?

and had it been the attacker in the vehicle?

You're weighing one group of people's safety against that of another. That's emotional thinking rather than logical. Thereby putting more emphasis on the safety of the "innocent victims" rather than those charged with risking their lives to find a dangerous man when in reality one life is not more or less important than another.

Considering tensions and potential threats there was no possible "win" to this situation. We can play the "what if" game all day long after the fact, but that is only helpful in planning PREVENTATIVE measures for the future, not judging AARs. The truth of the matter is we're simply debating over TWO ends of a stick.

Couple of innocent citizens die unintentionally by LEOs VS a couple of LEOs potentially dying at the hands of the criminal. There's no way for them to know ahead of time who was in the vehicle and whether or not they posed a threat. They made a decision and now must HOPEFULLY face due process for that decision. At the time, in their minds, it was either take a shot and risk it being the wrong person, or Don't and possibly risk being shot at.

I don't think anyone here could/would have conducted themselves in any manner contradictory to that of those officers in THEIR situation at that time. Although many of us may have been more judiciary with our marksmanship, I doubt anyone would have made a different decision otherwise.

 

[Liberty1911]

Interesting comments from an LAPD Captain on Dorner's target list.

A captain who was named a target in the manifesto posted on Facebook told the Orange County Register he has not stepped outside his house since he learned of the threat.
"From what I've seen of (Dorner's) actions, he feels he can make allegations for injustice and justify killing people and that's not reasonable," said Capt. Phil Tingirides, who chaired a board that stripped Dorner of his badge. "The end never justifies the means."


Authorities find camping gear in burned truck owned by former LAPD cop suspected in 3 killings | Fox News

 

[the1kidd03]

You've read what I know.

A vehicle "creeping up on and past" at low speed a group (of unknown size) of police officers working this investigation in the dark with their lights turned off, while ignoring verbal commands of those officers ONCE it was noticed. There could be a level of "startle factor" involved, but who knows?!?

Crossing that with what the MEDIA says, how do ANYONE of us know what's true and what isn't? We DON'T. We're merely filling in the gaps of information with our own biased in combination with media reports which are known to be 100% truthful and unbiased.

IMO, officers protect themselves at all costs. Their is often little ethics involved in their actions. So could a bit of that psychology be tarnishing the information I've been given by a close officer? Absolutely. Do any of us know that for sure? No. All I can do is vouch for the integrity of those I've talked to as far as standing up for what's ethically right even if it means his job. That doesn't inherently mean that he's not willing to go to SOME lengths to defend his brothers in blue like all others.

At the same time, we also know the media of ANY variety is RARELY 100% truthful, accurate, unbiased, and NOT misleading.

Hence, WE DON'T KNOW. It's up to each person what one wants to believe while NONE of it is 100% reliable sourcing. It is what it is. NOT justification for condemning a man. Believing otherwise is "guilty until proven innocent" rather than "innocent until proven guilty" just as we gun owners CONSTANLY suggest we are victims of by LEOs.

 

[mrjarrell]

Here's the other person they rammed and shot at. No doubt someone will be along to defend those actions, too.

Police seeking Dorner opened fire in a second case of mistaken identity - latimes.com

 

[mrjarrell]

And LAPD is going to buy the ladies a new truck. Well, that makes it all better now, doesn't it?

Delivering Newspapers, Then Caught in a Hail of LAPD Bullets | KTLA 5

 

[Lycurgus]

You've got a weird way of thinking...



shoot first and find out who you shot later.

This is not the kind of law enforcement we need serving us.

and had it been the attacker in the vehicle?

Couple of innocent citizens die unintentionally by LEOs VS a couple of LEOs potentially dying at the hands of the criminal. There's no way for them to know ahead of time who was in the vehicle and whether or not they posed a threat. They made a decision and now must HOPEFULLY face due process for that decision. At the time, in their minds, it was either take a shot and risk it being the wrong person, or Don't and possibly risk being shot at.

I don't think anyone here could/would have conducted themselves in any manner contradictory to that of those officers in THEIR situation at that time. Although many of us may have been more judiciary with our marksmanship, I doubt anyone would have made a different decision otherwise.

.

 

[Lycurgus]

repost

 

[the1kidd03]

Here's the other person they rammed and shot at. No doubt someone will be along to defend those actions, too.

Police seeking Dorner opened fire in a second case of mistaken identity - latimes.com

Don't know anything about that one, and contrary to popular emotional belief I'm not "defending" the officers. I'm merely trusting their judgement to the courts in the area and officers who will be investigating it rather than believing what LITTLE, INSUFFICIENT information I have is enough to condemn the offending officers.

Look through my posts and you will see that I'm typically the forerunner in questioning ethicalness in actions of LE. In this case however, there are too many gaps in information to make a conscionably informed decision and my opinions are not swayed by emotional gravity.

 

[Lycurgus]

repost

 

[the1kidd03]

You've got a weird way of thinking...



shoot first and find out who you shot later.

This is not the kind of law enforcement we need serving us.

No, it's rational. I'm just not "emotionally tied" like most people.

It's easy to judge a situation when you aren't there and don't have the same responsibilities as those who are.