Mandatory Firearms Training?

[BulkAmmo]

While I wish that more gun owners would take training classes or just be more involved in the safe handling aspect of firearms. I think it's a slippery slope to have requirements for firearm ownership. If it were to be implemented I could see the training classes becoming a way for the anti crowd to remove firearms.

The second issue would be that you could end up taking firearms away from those to couldn't afford the classes. The other option would be to subsidize the training in which all of us would be forced to pay for it. While the system now isn't perfect it's better than the alternative.

__________________
bulk .22 wmr ammo

 

[Bunnykid68]

Any way you slice it you do not have a fundamental right to carry a gun, just like apparently you do not have a fundamental right to get to one place or another. You need the governments permission to drive or carry a gun in this state.

 

[Iceandfire]

I guess I'm in a different corner here. I have my NRA Instructor's card, I teach 4-H Shooting Sports and Hunter Ed classes, so I guess I've taught a few hundred people how to be safe around guns. I've also taught high school and college classes (not gun safety) and I know the difference between people that are taking a class because they want to, and those that are there because they have to be.
Making gun safety classes mandatory won't improve the masses. Too many of those in front of the instructor will be there waiting for the time to be up so they can get the right to carry, and not because they want to learn something. And those that don't want to learn, won't.

Just my $.02.

 

[AJBB87]

I don't understand how saying that just because there are still car accidents or negligent discharges means that gun training should not be necessary.

I voluntarily took the NRA basic pistol course, and the NRA personal protection course taught by James Heath of Acton, IN.

I am 100% better off for it. I shoot better. I have a better understanding of safety and the fundamentals of shooting.

I'm not saying that I took the best training course. But it was something, and my resulting performance speaks for itself!

To say that "most people wouldn't remember what they learn anyway, so F it" is total crap! If they can take away (1) thing from the class that they would not have otherwise known, then it was worth it!

TRAINING NEVER HURTS, IT ONLY HELPS.

It's the reason the Military and LEO's constantly train. It's the reason that LEO's have to qualify with their weapons repeatedly throughout their career.

I'm not saying I'm the best shot, believe me. However, I was at Atterbury today, shooting a Beretta. I watched several groups of shooters, @ 7 yards, scattering their shots on a 12" circle target. They were hitting paper, but Christ, I hope I'm never behind the shoulder of their target.

Between crap stances, grips, and safety consciousness, I do not see why it would be a big deal to have some training required for a CARRY PERMIT.

Training SHOULD NOT be required to own a handgun.

BUT...

If you are going to CARRY a self defense weapon, I want you to be proficient for me and my families sake!

It is NOT too much to ask...

Just as we ask the drivers of automobiles, or the pilots of jets, or the engineers of trains, or the managers of Arby's, or the operators of M249 SAW's, or the [insert proffesion requiring certification/training] of [insert dangerous/abnormal object]




Your rights END where mine BEGIN. I have the right to not be killed by friendly fire because you can't shoot and don't train but carry anyway.


Common Sense




AJB

 

[ATM]

...I do not see why it would be a big deal to have some training required for a CARRY PERMIT.

First, you'd need to convince me that carry permits should be required.

Then you could get back to required training, which would make it a double infringement.

TRAINING NEVER HURTS, IT ONLY HELPS.

Right. Training will be $2000.00. It will be offered one day per year. The test at the end is possible to pass but most people will fail.
Don't worry, this required training can't possibly hurt - only help.

Common Sense

Cuts both ways.

 

[critter592]

I've been thinking about the whole airline pilot analogy (I've even used it myself awhile back) for training. However I have changed my opinion on mandatory training. An airline pilot has THOUSANDS more controlls to deal with in a flight deck than are on a gun. Trigger, mag release, maybe a decocker, maybe an external safety are on the gun but an airliner is way more complex. So I believe this a bad anaology now. However, decision making is something that can be infinitely complex and that's why I'm constantly reading here about scenarios real and perceived. Can't get enough of it because it is so variable. And I don't think any goverment mandated training can possibly be sufficient.

When I skydived I used to think the regulation was key to safety. However I saw lots of regs busted. I also saw people die even while abiding by each and every reg. So what's the answer? YOU must have the internal drive to seek knowledge for ever. In every aspect of your life. And this will carry you through whether training is mandated or not. Another rule is just another thing that someone can ignore or follow without understanding the why and still mess up.

The four safety rules aren't rules of law anywhere. Yet, look how they are universally followed. WE THE PEOPLE made them law because we recognize their value. 1. Every gun will be treated as if it is loaded. 2. Keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot. 3. Know your target and what is behind your target. 4. Do not point your gun at anything you don't want to kill or destroy. But it's not in any law book. We preach it like Gospel. Because it is.

 

[AJBB87]

[/u]
First, you'd need to convince me that carry permits should be required.

Then you could get back to required training, which would make it a double infringement.



Cuts both ways.

So...

Should we give anyone who wants to be a LEO, arrest powers?
Should anyone be able to walk up to a plane, and fly it?
Should anyone be able to deploy to the sandbox and fight side-by-side with our troops for our country without any training?

Your argument is about a principle. I understand that.

Common sense says, as your abilities increase, so do your responsibilities.

Is carrying for the defense of YOU and OTHERS not a large responsibility?

How can you justify, not training, for such a large responsibility?

AJB

 

[ATM]

...We preach it like Gospel. Because it is.

Careful with the verse numbers. Those aren't the King James versions there.

 

[AJBB87]

The four safety rules aren't rules of law anywhere. Yet, look how they are universally followed. WE THE PEOPLE made them law because we recognize their value. 1. Every gun will be treated as if it is loaded. 2. Keep your finger off the trigger and out of the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot. 3. Know your target and what is behind your target. 4. Do not point your gun at anything you don't want to kill or destroy. But it's not in any law book. We preach it like Gospel. Because it is.

Universally followed?

Are you serious?

Ask any gun store owner about the number of idiots they get on a weekly basis, who have NO concept of safety.

I'm reminded of the guy that walked into the gun store, asked to see a gun, and pointed it at his "significant other", pulled the trigger and and said "That'll teach you to talk back to me".

You are not that naive, are you?

 

[ATM]

So...

Should we give anyone who wants to be a LEO, arrest powers?
Should anyone be able to walk up to a plane, and fly it?
Should anyone be able to deploy to the sandbox and fight side-by-side with our troops for our country without any training?

You are comparing actions and jobs to simply carrying an item.

How can you justify, not training, for such a large responsibility?

I can't. That's why I seek training and train others.

I make many other decisions for myself that I don't feel should be mandated.
I have no need to control others or restrict their freedom to exercise their rights. Liberty will always be scary.

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

So...

Should we give anyone who wants to be a LEO, arrest powers?

Being a LEO is not a right protected by the Constitution

Should anyone be able to walk up to a plane, and fly it?

Flying a plane is not a right protected by the Constitution.

Should anyone be able to deploy to the sandbox and fight side-by-side with our troops for our country without any training?

Serving in the military is not even a right protected by the Constitution.

Your argument is about a principle. I understand that.

Common sense says, as your abilities increase, so do your responsibilities.

Is carrying for the defense of YOU and OTHERS not a large responsibility?

Yes it is a very large responsibility, as well as a right protected by the Constitution.

How can you justify, not training, for such a large responsibility?

I cannot justify it at all. That's why I train and encourage others to do the same. I just don't think you should need mandatory training to exercise a right protected by the Constitution.


AJB

By your argument, it seems you would approve of the law in some states that require a practical range test before people are awarded a Permit to Carry?

 

[Sigblaster]

I don't understand how saying that just because there are still car accidents or negligent discharges means that gun training should not be necessary.

I voluntarily took the NRA basic pistol course, and the NRA personal protection course taught by James Heath of Acton, IN.

I am 100% better off for it. I shoot better. I have a better understanding of safety and the fundamentals of shooting.

I'm not saying that I took the best training course. But it was something, and my resulting performance speaks for itself!

To say that "most people wouldn't remember what they learn anyway, so F it" is total crap! If they can take away (1) thing from the class that they would not have otherwise known, then it was worth it!

TRAINING NEVER HURTS, IT ONLY HELPS.

It's the reason the Military and LEO's constantly train. It's the reason that LEO's have to qualify with their weapons repeatedly throughout their career.

I'm not saying I'm the best shot, believe me. However, I was at Atterbury today, shooting a Beretta. I watched several groups of shooters, @ 7 yards, scattering their shots on a 12" circle target. They were hitting paper, but Christ, I hope I'm never behind the shoulder of their target.

Between crap stances, grips, and safety consciousness, I do not see why it would be a big deal to have some training required for a CARRY PERMIT.

Training SHOULD NOT be required to own a handgun.

BUT...

If you are going to CARRY a self defense weapon, I want you to be proficient for me and my families sake!

It is NOT too much to ask...

Just as we ask the drivers of automobiles, or the pilots of jets, or the engineers of trains, or the managers of Arby's, or the operators of M249 SAW's, or the [insert proffesion requiring certification/training] of [insert dangerous/abnormal object]




Your rights END where mine BEGIN. I have the right to not be killed by friendly fire because you can't shoot and don't train but carry anyway.


Common Sense




AJB

So, basically you're afraid, and you want the government to make a law so you'll feel safer.

 

[critter592]

You are not that naive, are you?

Thanks for making this personal instead of just stating your view point.

 

[AJBB87]

By your argument, it seems you would approve of the law in some states that require a practical range test before people are awarded a Permit to Carry?

Yes, I'm glad you inferred that from my previous posts.

If by "practical" you mean a relevant qualification that shows you are proficient with the weapon you choose to carry, then yes, I would approve of the law that requires a practical range test before people are awarded a Permit to Carry.

It seems that anyone who pursues a Utah permit, to carry in more states reciprocally, would as well.

 

[AJBB87]

Thanks for making this personal instead of just stating your view point.

I apologize for singling you out. It was not my intention. I am nothing more than a screen name and nothing I say should be taken personal.

However, the question remains. Do you think that every single person who handles a gun is aware of the (4) rules of gun safety?

 

[AJBB87]

So, basically you're afraid, and you want the government to make a law so you'll feel safer.

Nope.

I want people to be good at what they say they want to be able to do.

 

[Sigblaster]

Nope.

I want people to be good at what they say they want to be able to do.

You're afraid. Get over it.

 

[critter592]

I apologize for singling you out. It was not my intention. I am nothing more than a screen name and nothing I say should be taken personal.

However, the question remains. Do you think that every single person who handles a gun is aware of the (4) rules of gun safety?

It is an impossibility to say every person who handles a gun will know or follow the 4 rules. The rule in skydiving is you must deploy a parachute before hitting the ground. However, even that rule is broken by people who know it. So there has to be more. Constant education. And courage to speak up when we see people not following what a large majority believe to be the basic safety rules of gun handling. And tomorrow there will be another person who becomes exposed to guns who will have to be educated. That's why this type of thread will never end. There will always be another person to post this thread topic no matter how many times it has been posted before.

I used to get very frustrated when having to repeat what seemed to be basic logic in skydiving safety. But I've come to understand that it is a constant struggle no matter how many "get it" and how many "need to get it." The effort will always be there.

 

[AJBB87]

You're afraid. Get over it.

OK, I'll admit it.

I am afraid that I will be killed by a mall ninja with the latest and greatest Kimber, because he didn't have the common sense to let the situation play out instead of being the hero.

I am afraid that my neighbors daughter will be behind the robber when the LTCH holder, with no training, fires into center mass killing the suspect and the victim standing behind him.

THERE IS NO REASON, TO NOT TRAIN OR BE EDUCATED!!!

 

[AJBB87]

It is an impossibility to say every person who handles a gun will know or follow the 4 rules. The rule in skydiving is you must deploy a parachute before hitting the ground. However, even that rule is broken by people who know it. So there has to be more. Constant education. And courage to speak up when we see people not following what a large majority believe to be the basic safety rules of gun handling. And tomorrow there will be another person who becomes exposed to guns who will have to be educated. That's why this type of thread will never end. There will always be another person to post this thread topic no matter how many times it has been posted before.

I used to get very frustrated when having to repeat what seemed to be basic logic in skydiving safety. But I've come to understand that it is a constant struggle no matter how many "get it" and how many "need to get it." The effort will always be there.

I understand your plight. The simple truth is that the world is full of idiots.

But like I said earlier, if an idiot can take one, single thing away from gun training, then why not?