Mandated vaccines or weekly testing for employers of 100+ people.......

[jamil]

Well, there are studies that have found that the vaccinated cary a higher viral load than the unvaccinated, so I don't think you can make that claim. Higher viral load would mean more infectious.

There are also studies which show the opposite. When seeing conflicting information we can choose to believe the information that supports our belief. There’s really no room for disparaging that. It’s the default human instinct. We can also override that instinct, to say it could be either.

I think that what the two different outcomes tell me, is that the vaccines are at least a little effective against the delta variant. I understand that goes against what many skeptics believe, that it has zero benefit.

But if we’re all being honest I think the thing that both sides should be able to admit, the fact that there is conflicting data should eliminate any talk of mandates. Even INGO’s chamber-o-commerce Republicans should admit that beyond just lip service.

 

[KLB]

Covid didn't kill off the flu. Isolation and better hygeine probably accounted for most of it.

Oh wait, you're serious.

 

[buckwacker]

There are also studies which show the opposite. When seeing conflicting information we can choose to believe the information that supports our belief. There’s really no room for disparaging that. It’s the default human instinct. We can also override that instinct, to say it could be either.

I think that what the two different outcomes tell me, is that the vaccines are at least a little effective against the delta variant. I understand that goes against what many skeptics believe, that it has zero benefit.

But if we’re all being honest I think the thing that both sides should be able to admit, the fact that there is conflicting data should eliminate any talk of mandates. Even INGO’s chamber-o-commerce Republicans should admit that beyond just lip service.

You stated as fact that vaccinated are at least a little less contagious than unvaccinated. It is not a fact, there is conflicting information in that regard, and passing it off as such appears very much like confirmation bias.

There are countries toward the highest end of the percentage of population vaxxed spectrum that are experiencing some of the highest covid case numbers. If the vax offers at least some protection, this should not be happening.

I am glad you agree that mandates are a bad idea. I believe pretty much any coercive or punitive policy around covid is a terrible idea when reason and science have been completely supplanted by ideology and politics.

 

[jamil]

At this point there are studies about studies being studied, all to discredit another study. I’ll go with my gut instinct, that survival tool we were all born with. Some have good instincts, some don’t. Mine tells me the vaccine doesn’t do **** but give a false sense of security. Other people’s instincts tell them the vaccine makes them invincible. They are free to follow their instincts, I should be free to do the same.

I'd argue that "instinct" is what's getting us into this mess. About half the people, maybe a little more, think people who remain unvaccinated should be forced. That's their unreasoned, instinctive response to information about unvaccinated people. The other half, or slightly less, have an instinctive response to distrust vaccines, and obviously they're going to be against mandates.

Instinct is a survival feature. Rather than using your cognitive ability to analyze new information to arrive at a reason response to incoming stimuli, instinctive response happens instantly.

Instinctive responses have their place. Insticts use your ability to compare information to your innate and learned understanding about the world. You're not evaluating at that stage, whether that information is accurate. Reasoned responses has their place too. And if everyone were using it in conjunction with instincts, to figure out what is the best policy to deal with COVID, without making things worse for people, I think that would be way better than people just using instincts.

We (collective, "we") tried acting instinctively since the pandemic started. It caused massive lockdowns and arguably made things worse. I said back then, rather than saying, don't just stand there, do something, a better approach would be to say, don't just do something, stand there, and think about what is best to do for everyone.

We didn't do that. Some people's instincts were favored over others, and that made things worse. We're still collectively making decisions that should make everyone scratch their heads.

Your instincts tell you that these vaccines have zero efficacy, and maybe even that COVID isn't really much of a threat at all. Neither of those instincts are reasonably true. But also, our leaders are making decisions as if vaccines have 100% efficacy and COVID may as well be the Black Death. Neither of those are true either. The truth lies between those two instincts. The correct policy that is best for everyone does too.

 

[jamil]

You stated as fact that vaccinated are at least a little less contagious than unvaccinated. It is not a fact, there is conflicting information in that regard, and passing it off as such appears very much like confirmation bias.

There are countries toward the highest end of the percentage of population vaxxed spectrum that are experiencing some of the highest covid case numbers. If the vax offers at least some protection, this should not be happening.

I am glad you agree that mandates are a bad idea. I believe pretty much any coercive or punitive policy around covid is a terrible idea when reason and science have been completely supplanted by ideology and politics.

Yes. I look at the conflicting studies and I have to draw some kind of conclusion from the information given. I think the studies show that vaccines are at least a little helpful in that vaccinated people are less contagious than unvaccinated people. But I need to add another qualifier that I did not make clear before. When I say unvaccinated people, of course I don't mean unvaccinated people who have recovered from COVID. Those people have an immunity superior to vaccinated people.

If you've recovered from the alpha variant, the studies seem to consistently suggest you have better immunity against the delta variant than vaccinated people. If you've recovered from the Delta variant, you have WAY better immunity from that than a vaccinated person. There is zero cause to be vaccinated if you've recovered from either. You're way less likely to get it again, and you're way less likely to spread it.

The fact that there is conflicting information doesn't mean that there are no facts about who spreads what. What it does mean is that it certainly does not support mandates. At best, vaccines are a personal choice, a tool with risks attached. And people should make their own decisions, and according to their own conscience, for those who have religious objections.

 

[jamil]

Oh wait, you're serious.

Well, even for Alpo the clock strikes 12 twice a day.

He's right though. We shut down businesses, schools, and social events. Pretty much all the ways the flu spread were halted for many months. I can't relate anything personal about the flu. I had just gotten over it prior to the pandemic hitting, so I probably had a little immunity to getting it again for a year or two. But I usually have a cold a few times a year.

I just got my first cold several weeks ago, and holy **** that was a doozy. I thought it would never end. I had symptoms for a month. The whole family got it. We thought maybe it was the rona. One of us got tested and it was some kind of cold/retrovirus bug, not the rona.

I went for about a year and a half without having so much as a cold. Not having the flu could have been because I'd just gotten over it. But it's not unreasonable, even given that many hospitals seem to like tallying everything they can as 'rona, that decreased exposure had a lot to do with the low cases of flu.

 

[phylodog]

The only part my instincts come in to play in all of this is through recognizing that anything surrounded by as much misinformation, outright lies, cover ups and hysteria as this virus, is anything but genuine. None of the new tests, data or talking heads are going to change that at this stage of the game.

Too many in this country are willing to turn a blind eye to liars, cheats and thieves so long as those liars, cheats and thieves tell them what they want to hear or convince them that they are in the majority by supporting them. That's not a path I'll walk down.

I don't know much of anything about Covid or the vaccines. I'm not a scientist, virologist or politician but I recognize ******** when I see it and avoiding that silly ******** has made my life nothing but simpler and better since I made the decision not to play in those sandboxes.

This entire ****ing mess was created by people I'd not allow at my dinner table. I will not submerse myself in their cesspool. If Covid were to wipe out the human race it wouldn't be due to the lethality of Covid but the fault of liars, cheats and thieves. Something something live on my feet something something die on my knees.

 

[jamil]

The only part my instincts come in to play in all of this is through recognizing that anything surrounded by as much misinformation, outright lies, cover ups and hysteria is anything but genuine. None of the new tests, data or talking heads are going to change that.

Too many in this country are willing to turn a blind eye to liars, cheats and thieves so long as those liars, cheats and thieves tell them what they want to hear or convince them that they are in the majority by supporting them. That's not a path I'll walk down.

I don't know much of anything about Covid or the vaccines. I'm not a scientist, virologist or politician but I recognize ******** when I see it and avoiding that silly ******** has made my life nothing but simpler and better since I made the decision not to play in those sandboxes.

This entire ****ing mess was created by people I'd not allow at my dinner table. I will not submerse myself in their cesspool. If Covid were to wipe out the human race it wouldn't be due to the lethality of Covid but the fault of liars, cheats and thieves. Something something live on my feet something something die on my knees.

I couldn't possibly like this post any more. Unfortunately I've reached maximum like.

Similar to "if they act like they're hiding somethign, it's reasonable to suspect they're hiding something," if they act opposite of information given, it's reasonable to suspect that there is another motivation.

Pfizer has made $100B from this pandemic already. Arms un-shot is money left on the table. Pfizer and the whole pharma world lobbies the **** out of congress and administrations. What other reasonable conclusion is there?

These mother****ers tell us that natural immunity doesn't count because there is conflicting data on its efficacy. But the conflicting data on vaccine efficacy justifies mandating them? How can I reasonably make sense of this contradiction? Follow the money. And follow the power.

 

[tim87tr]

I guess we arrived at communism through the free market rather than the state.

It's called fascism.

The setup for control and wealth distribution used to be nation states against each other. We would wake up and hear a Country did something against the US and be in a defined and devised war.

Now it's government against the people using the corporations and MSM, except they aren't announcing this violence because it's against their own people. Fairly obvious it's a global agenda for control and wealth.

 

[KLB]

Well, even for Alpo the clock strikes 12 twice a day.

He's right though. We shut down businesses, schools, and social events. Pretty much all the ways the flu spread were halted for many months. I can't relate anything personal about the flu. I had just gotten over it prior to the pandemic hitting, so I probably had a little immunity to getting it again for a year or two. But I usually have a cold a few times a year.

I just got my first cold several weeks ago, and holy **** that was a doozy. I thought it would never end. I had symptoms for a month. The whole family got it. We thought maybe it was the rona. One of us got tested and it was some kind of cold/retrovirus bug, not the rona.

I went for about a year and a half without having so much as a cold. Not having the flu could have been because I'd just gotten over it. But it's not unreasonable, even given that many hospitals seem to like tallying everything they can as 'rona, that decreased exposure had a lot to do with the low cases of flu.

You think that was responsible for a 97% decrease in the flu? All those measures worked for the all of the other influenza viruses, but not for Covid? That is your theory?

 

[KLB]

The other half, or slightly less, have an instinctive response to distrust vaccines, and obviously they're going to be against mandates.

This is just nonsense. I would imagine that the number that just instinctively distrust vaccines in rather small.

We are talking about an experimental vaccine for a virus with a very low mortality rate. I can't imagine why someone would be against getting that other than simply distrusting vaccines in general. I expected you to be better than going anti-vaxxer in your arguments.

 

[Leadeye]

At the beginning of all this I figured vaccination would be a good thing, being of the age that Alpo described, as kids we got shots for everything. That said, as time went by, doubt began. Money and politics entered and rather quickly what "truth" there was, vanished. All my career I've run experiments and tests to help employers make better decisions. My first observation about Covid was how unreliable the test was and how quickly "money and politics" was making decisions about it using data accumulated by a test with the accuracy of a coin toss. Direct observation of people who I learned had Covid in the many factories I visit, and my conversations with them, made me believe that the symptoms were more variable than the common cold. Contagion was another anomaly, this just didn't spread like a cold or regular flu, even in a close factory environment.

Unreliable info, big media sensationalism, greed, ego satisfaction, and finally this quasi religious crusade against the unvaccinated finished my belief in public health. It's all a part of machine politics now with the drama of a soap opera and the veracity of a gossip rag.

 

[buckwacker]

I couldn't possibly like this post any more. Unfortunately I've reached maximum like.

Similar to "if they act like they're hiding somethign, it's reasonable to suspect they're hiding something," if they act opposite of information given, it's reasonable to suspect that there is another motivation.

Pfizer has made $100B from this pandemic already. Arms un-shot is money left on the table. Pfizer and the whole pharma world lobbies the **** out of congress and administrations. What other reasonable conclusion is there?

These mother****ers tell us that natural immunity doesn't count because there is conflicting data on its efficacy. But the conflicting data on vaccine efficacy justifies mandating them? How can I reasonably make sense of this contradiction? Follow the money. And follow the power.

Might want to proofread for words the software didn't catch before you get dinged.

 

[buckwacker]

Yes. I look at the conflicting studies and I have to draw some kind of conclusion from the information given. I think the studies show that vaccines are at least a little helpful in that vaccinated people are less contagious than unvaccinated people. But I need to add another qualifier that I did not make clear before. When I say unvaccinated people, of course I don't mean unvaccinated people who have recovered from COVID. Those people have an immunity superior to vaccinated people.

If you've recovered from the alpha variant, the studies seem to consistently suggest you have better immunity against the delta variant than vaccinated people. If you've recovered from the Delta variant, you have WAY better immunity from that than a vaccinated person. There is zero cause to be vaccinated if you've recovered from either. You're way less likely to get it again, and you're way less likely to spread it.

The fact that there is conflicting information doesn't mean that there are no facts about who spreads what. What it does mean is that it certainly does not support mandates. At best, vaccines are a personal choice, a tool with risks attached. And people should make their own decisions, and according to their own conscience, for those who have religious objections.

Conflicting information doesn't preclude the existence of facts, it just makes the facts difficult to impossible to determine. Drawing your own conclusions mean that you've simply arrived at a personal opinion that may or may not be reflective of the actual facts.

For me, the continuous lies, propaganda, and censorship is enough b.s. for me to arrive at the conclusion that I'm not going to buy anything those that are peddling them are trying to sell me. If these vaccines were of such benefit, they wouldn't need to be "sold" by such coercive means.

 

[buckwacker]

Well, even for Alpo the clock strikes 12 twice a day.

He's right though. We shut down businesses, schools, and social events. Pretty much all the ways the flu spread were halted for many months. I can't relate anything personal about the flu. I had just gotten over it prior to the pandemic hitting, so I probably had a little immunity to getting it again for a year or two. But I usually have a cold a few times a year.

I just got my first cold several weeks ago, and holy **** that was a doozy. I thought it would never end. I had symptoms for a month. The whole family got it. We thought maybe it was the rona. One of us got tested and it was some kind of cold/retrovirus bug, not the rona.

I went for about a year and a half without having so much as a cold. Not having the flu could have been because I'd just gotten over it. But it's not unreasonable, even given that many hospitals seem to like tallying everything they can as 'rona, that decreased exposure had a lot to do with the low cases of flu.

My mom works in an er in the indy metro area (at least until they fire her for being unvaccinated). She said they've not done any flu testing in over a year and a half. It's all been covid testing. It's easy to make flu "disappear" when you never test for it.

 

[jamil]

You think that was responsible for a 97% decrease in the flu? All those measures worked for the all of the other influenza viruses, but not for Covid? That is your theory?

Covid is more transmissible, so yeah. And I didn’t say isolation was totally responsible for the low flu numbers. I think there may be many factors. One is how society was treated by the medical community. Those who did get the flu may have been counted as having covid. Early on, many who may have had the flu couldn’t get tested and were told to stay home.

 

[jamil]

My mom works in an er in the indy metro area (at least until they fire her for being unvaccinated). She said they've not done any flu testing in over a year and a half. It's all been covid testing. It's easy to make flu "disappear" when you never test for it.

That’s one place that has that policy. That’s not been my experience. My son got sick several months ago. They tested him for covid and for flu. He had neither.

The rest of my family got sick a few weeks ago. Tested negative for both COVID and the flu. I do think early on, if someone did have the flu our system was incapacitated by hysteria to know it. I don’t think that’s been the case for more than a year.

 

[jamil]

Might want to proofread for words the software didn't catch before you get dinged.

But you quoted it. I can’t edit that one out. It’s alright. Someone pm’d me and I fixed it. Why is INGO’s profanity filters as inconsistent as covid policies?

 

[Hatin Since 87]

But you quoted it. I can’t edit that one out. It’s alright. Someone pm’d me and I fixed it. Why is INGO’s profanity filters as inconsistent as covid policies?

What the ****? Mine works. Maybe you haven’t gotten your word filter booster shot?

 

[printcraft]

You guys think "just get this one shot and you'll be ok" right?

https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/578448-moderna-chairman-says-booster-could-be-yearly

Moderna Chairman Noubar Afeyan indicated on Tuesday that his company's COVID-19 shot could require yearly boosters.

L O L

As long as there is billions to be made, this will never be over.