Man seen with a hose nozzle, shot without warning by police

[jeremy]

They had several minutes to discern what was going on, they shot a man they thought had a gun.

They DID NOT shoot a man they thought had a hose nozzle.

Their intent was likely not malicious, they DID commit murder. The question is not whether or not they murdered someone, it is whether or not they were justified in their actions.

You are right it may not have been malicious, however it was certainly Incompetent and Negligent.

You can sit back and say you would have known it was a garden hose nozzle; however, I highly doubt that you would have.

I have been, and so have several of my Brothers in Arms been confronted by similar situations countless times. I have never Murdered a Drunk or Child for playing around.

This is a very circumstantial problem, it would be dificult to prove you would have known otherwise.

LOL...

 

[clgustaveson]

You are right it may not have been malicious, however it was certainly Incompetent and Negligent.

Maybe, maybe not.

I have been, and so have several of my Brothers in Arms been confronted by similar situations countless times. I have never Murdered a Drunk or Child for playing around.

I still find it very doubtful. Approaching someone playing with something that looks like a gun, and being called to protect someone who is fearing for their life, primed with the foreknowledge the person has a gun are completely different things.

You are being very judgmental about something I VERY highly doubt you have experienced.

I asked for an example of how this happened in the field, you gave none. You likely think you have the skill to discern a hose nozzle from a gun, which I hope you do, but when faced with similar circumstances I would suggest it is not as easy.

Very unrelated but many people think they also would have told Hitler and his men to shove it when confronted with that dilemma, but it is VERY likely you also would have obayed the commands no matter how horrible they were.

 

[dross]

The first officers on the scene arrive. They are waiting for more backup. Can they see the nozzle? Maybe they can from their position, maybe they can't. Maybe they can only partially see the guy from where they are located. We don't know.

Now the other officers arrive. They move to engage the guy they have been told is drunk, armed, and trespassing. The guy is holding an object, which if it is in one or both of his hands, might be impossible to identify. It looks a little like a gun on it's own, more so if it were held in a hand, or two hands.

According to the officers, the man raised the object that they had already been told was a gun, an object that looks like a gun, and that looks more like a gun in someone's hands. The man points the object at them with a two handed grip commonly used for handguns, not commonly used for hose nozzle attachements.

If this is how it went down, how can anyone say they weren't justified? Granted, I don't know exactly how it went down, but neither does anyone else except the cops.

You can act in a perfectly reasonable manner, make a perfectly justifiable and reasonable decision, that later turns out to be factually incorrect. That does not automatically make you criminally, civilly, or even morally wrong.

 

[jeremy]

Maybe, maybe not.

No based on the facts that have been leaked out on the web, they are.

I still find it very doubtful. Approaching someone playing with something that looks like a gun, and being called to protect someone who is fearing for their life, primed with the foreknowledge the person has a gun are completely different things.

You are being very judgmental about something I VERY highly doubt you have experienced.

Right, I have little to no experience. I just went to the PX and bought the 21 stripes that I wear on the right arm of my dress uniform...

I asked for an example of how this happened in the field, you gave none. You likely think you have the skill to discern a hose nozzle from a gun, which I hope you do, but when faced with similar circumstances I would suggest it is not as easy.

LOL...
You want to hear an example of how this type of stuff happens in the field. Go ask a Recruiter, they usually have the cool stories. Besides what kind of stories would a mechanic have to tell...

Very unrelated but many people think they also would have told Hitler and his men to shove it when confronted with that dilemma, but it is VERY likely you also would have obayed the commands no matter how horrible they were.

Once again we have reached the Nazi/Hitler part of the discussion...
Sigh...

 

[clgustaveson]

No based on the facts that have been leaked out on the web, they are.



Right, I have little to no experience. I just went to the PX and bought the 21 stripes that I wear on the right arm of my dress uniform...



LOL...
You want to hear an example of how this type of stuff happens in the field. Go ask a Recruiter, they usually have the cool stories. Besides what kind of stories would a mechanic have to tell...



Once again we have reached the Nazi/Hitler part of the discussion...
Sigh...

HAHA whats it called godfreys law? Nobody was comparing anyone to hitler or a Nazi, in fact I was doing quite the opposite.

The problem I see, is that you keep saying you have experienced this but you wont give an example.

Those stripes on your arm mean you served, thank you for that. I have never heard of, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, the "called out to protect civilians from water hose nozzle" tab.

Bottom line, you are makeing a very biased decision based on the knowledge they killed someone with a hose nozzle... which this is only true after the fact. Those around, not just the police, but two witnesses and two police officers were under the impression the man had a gun. If you did not treat the man as though he had a gun until you knew for certain it wasn't then you would have acted with neglegence.

You think the officers could have somehow been more dilligent, but I don't think there was much opportunity with risking their lives or the lives of others.

 

[LPMan59]

Very unrelated but many people think they also would have told Hitler and his men to shove it when confronted with that dilemma, but it is VERY likely you also would have obayed the commands no matter how horrible they were.

On behalf of the Interwebz, I regretfully must inform you that because you have mentioned, compared or invoked the name of Hitler and or/Nazis, the argument is over and you have lost.

Mr' Godwin sends his regards.

 

[clgustaveson]

On behalf of the Interwebz, I regretfully must inform you that because you have mentioned, compared or invoked the name of Hitler and or/Nazis, the argument is over and you have lost.

Mr' Godwin sends his regards.

Ah, Gowin... I knew it was something close... however Godwins law is that someone is compared to Nazi's and or Hitler... this didn't happen...

 

[LPMan59]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

 

[clgustaveson]

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.

Oh, well it is true, the comparison involved Hitler and Nazis, but it was more of a Milgrim allusion. Next time I'll just use that.

 

[LPMan59]

Oh, well it is true, the comparison involved Hitler and Nazis, but it was more of a Milgrim allusion. Next time I'll just use that.

i'm just ribbin' ya. i was trying to be a smart-ass in what appears to be something of an impasse.

 

[clgustaveson]

i'm just ribbin' ya. i was trying to be a smart-ass in what appears to be something of an impasse.

I figured... This is a gun forum... watch yourself

 

[jeremy]

HAHA whats it called godfreys law? Nobody was comparing anyone to hitler or a Nazi, in fact I was doing quite the opposite.

LOL...
Sorry it is the Laws of the Net you lose...

The problem I see, is that you keep saying you have experienced this but you wont give an example.

You want examples from me, not across an open internet forum...

Those stripes on your arm mean you served, thank you for that. I have never heard of, doesn't mean it doesn't exist, the "called out to protect civilians from water hose nozzle" tab.

Stripes on the Left Arm our for Service...

Bottom line, you are makeing a very biased decision based on the knowledge they killed someone with a hose nozzle... which this is only true after the fact. Those around, not just the police, but two witnesses and two police officers were under the impression the man had a gun. If you did not treat the man as though he had a gun until you knew for certain it wasn't then you would have acted with neglegence.

You think the officers could have somehow been more dilligent, but I don't think there was much opportunity with risking their lives or the lives of others.

Perfection should be expected from those in Service Professions...

 

[clgustaveson]

LOL...
Sorry it is the Laws of the Net you lose...



You want examples from me, not across an open internet forum...


Stripes on the Left Arm our for Service...



Perfection should be expected from those in Service Professions...

Perfection should be required, not only expected. Was this situation handled perfectly?

Based on the small amount of information given it's hard to determine, but it was handled very near perfect based on the information we have.

 

[jeremy]

Perfection should be required, not only expected. Was this situation handled perfectly?

Based on the small amount of information given it's hard to determine, but it was handled very near perfect based on the information we have.

I feel you and I have 2 opposite definitions of Perfection...

See I feel your are giving the LEOs in question the benefit of doubt just for the fact they are LEOs. How would you feel if it was Civilians that had done the shooting?!

 

[clgustaveson]

I feel you and I have 2 opposite definitions of Perfection...

See I feel your are giving the LEOs in question the benefit of doubt just for the fact they are LEOs. How would you feel if it was Civilians that had done the shooting?!

No, I am not giving anyone the benefit of the doubt based on this situation.

The situation would have been handeled properly had it been anyone.

With the information given, the time allowed to make a judgement call, and those involved in the situation erroring on the side of caution, this situation was handeled as it should have been.

The man was shot because he aimed what was believed to be a gun at somebody -- End of Story.

Whether or not you would have been able to tell if it was a gun or not is irrelevant actually. Every single person on the scene thought it was a gun, civilian or otherwise.

 

[jeremy]

They were on scene for how long at 10 yards away and could not determine that it was not a Firearm. Really?! They could and did fire over 15 rounds from Pistols and Shotguns into the Porch the Drunk was sitting on though.

Anyone who cannot tell the difference of a Pistol and a Garden Hose Nozzle at 10 yards should not have the Responsibility of carrying a Firearm...

This is one of the reasons that the general Populace is really starting to distrust LEO/LEA. End of Story...

 

[clgustaveson]

They were on scene for how long at 10 yards away and could not determine that it was not a Firearm. Really?! They could and did fire over 15 rounds from Pistols and Shotguns into the Porch the Drunk was sitting on though.

Anyone who cannot tell the difference of a Pistol and a Garden Hose Nozzle at 10 yards should not have the Responsibility of carrying a Firearm...

This is one of the reasons that the general Populace is really starting to distrust LEO/LEA. End of Story...

I am sure if the man was standing holding the nozzle at his side anyone would be able to discern it was not a firearm... but he was holding like a firearm. It could have been a flare gun for all anyone knows.

I had not seen the type of hose nozzle he was holding until I saw the video. Does it make me crazy or incompetant? No.

 

[jeremy]

clgustaveson,

You and I are just on opposite ends of this discussion...

I feel the Officers in the incident should be Crucified in the Town Square for the way they handled this situation. However, have no fear that I am just picking on those that were on site only. I would also reprimand the Chain of Command also.

Is it crazy of me to expect Professionals to be able to do at a higher level of Competence than your average Gunowner?!

You do not. I cannot change your mind, nor you the way I feel towards those involved either. Ka Sara Sara...

 

[clgustaveson]

clgustaveson,

You and I are just on opposite ends of this discussion...

I feel the Officers in the incident should be Crucified in the Town Square for the way they handled this situation. However, have no fear that I am just picking on those that were on site only. I would also reprimand the Chain of Command also.

Is it crazy of me to expect Professionals to be able to do at a higher level of Competence than your average Gunowner?!

You do not. I cannot change your mind, nor you the way I feel towards those involved either. Ka Sara Sara...

No, there is a disconnect in your opinion of the situation. You are sitting back with hindsight saying you would have been able to identify the item regardless of circumstance.

I am saying that this is not always the case and you cannot make such a blanket statement.

The officers acted correctly if the item had been a gun. If you agree with that, then it would be agreed that if you could not identify the item to be something other than a gun you would have reacted the same way.

It's not easy to place yourself in someone elses shoes. The simple fact that every single person present thought the item was a gun makes it very aparent that it is not as easy as you suggest. We use schemas to help minimize mental processing, and the item fits the schema of firearm and not a hose nozzle, therefore theoretically it would make more sense for those around to view the item as a firearm rather than a nozzle.

That picture is of the actual hose nozzle... now here is a tiny six shooter:

Now, you can judge the situation how you want to but I think with a concealing two handed pistol grip it is likely even you would think it was a gun when handled as a gun would be handled.

 

[public servant]

On a scale of ugly...it's a Hi-Point.