Man seen with a hose nozzle, shot without warning by police

[Zoub]

Clearly the caller lied and made the situation something it wasn't. "On MY back steps"

Listen to it again and even read the text on screen.

He siad Porch Landing. To me that is common ground but he never said it was his porch, but it probably was the common area or landing all their porches tie into.........when he made the call.

That area is a maze of rat trap dead ends, alleys and walkways. All so people can say they live near the beach, unarmed mind you, but near the beach.

Even in this thread what little is known, and it is truly little, has been distorted. That is not lying or intentional either, it just happens.

 

[rambone]

Yeah, that is what everyone during the LA riots was also doing that day in Long Beach, waiting for a ride. Because everyone on foot is responsible and never breaks a law.

He walked there drunk. He didn't just magically appear on his friends porch. What did he do between the bar and porch? Obviously he got the attention of a few people. like I said I know the area WELL.

Likely he had already broken laws, like public intoxication and stealing the damn hose nozzle. If not, why did he carry a pistol like hose nozzle to and from the bar, in Long Beach noless? Do you really beleive he carried it and owned it? I know you tend to be myopic in your views and anti-establishment sentiment but you are are not able to think the whole situation through. You defend a dead drunk.

You WANT it to be "man shot while sitting on a porch and minding his own business" but it is not that.

You go strolling down 2nd St. with a "gun" then head on down to Ocean Blvd. See what happens next, but I suggest you do it sober. At that point you are putting yourself in the hands of the system and Cops who do not know you.

Maybe Dad's should spend the day sober with their 8 year olds instead of walking the streets drunk? I bet his family wishes he had done just that. Yeah, the cops used shotguns.

Nobody has reported that he took the hose nozzle anywhere. He was seen with it on the porch, and shot and killed on the porch. He didn't take the hoze nozzle to any bars. These petty infractions that you are speculating to have occurred would not warrant his death sentence.

The dead drunk I am defending is any one of us. He didn't break any laws, some neighbor thought he was. And on private property no less. Sober or drunk, the cops never spoke a word to him so that's really not a factor. Anybody who carries for self-defense could get the cops called on us. Maybe you don't worry about that because you have the right credentials.

 

[rich8483]

Soooo.... "we thought it was a gun " is a good defence ?!?!
Key word "thought"

I know this was in california but here in indiana, YES! if someone points something at you, toy gun or hose nozzle in a way that was described by the officers to look like he was about to fire on you, you are justified in a shoot.

i dont think that is what is arguable here.

what i think IS arguable, is whether he actually pointed it at them in a two handed firearm grip straight at them like they said. but how will we now know? maybe thats what we need those cam/mics for in the other thread.

if he did not point the nozzle at them. then we have a huge problem.
the problem being that a gun, ANY GUN, being in the vicinity of ANY PERSON, man or women, is automatically very dangerous just b/c it exists.
If this were true, any civilian or officer could automatically be killed just b/c they are legally carrying a gun.

 

[clgustaveson]

Listen to it again and even read the text on screen.

He siad Porch Landing. To me that is common ground but he never said it was his porch, but it probably was the common area or landing all their porches tie into.........when he made the call.

That area is a maze of rat trap dead ends, alleys and walkways. All so people can say they live near the beach, unarmed mind you, but near the beach.

Even in this thread what little is known, and it is truly little, has been distorted. That is not lying or intentional either, it just happens.

The official transcript in one sequence he states the man is on "my" back steps.

He also stated he saw the gun...

Nobody is distorting what he said.

If the police are falible, which they are, how is this anybody else's fault?

The police would not have reacted to his actions nearly as quickly or violently if they were not primed with that information.

The police clearly didnt have the time needed to respond to this situation properly.

 

[clgustaveson]

I know this was in california but here in indiana, YES! if someone points something at you, toy gun or hose nozzle in a way that was described by the officers to look like he was about to fire on you, you are justified in a shoot.

i dont think that is what is arguable here.

what i think IS arguable, is whether he actually pointed it at them in a two handed firearm grip straight at them like they said. but how will we now know? maybe thats what we need those cam/mics for in the other thread.

if he did not point the nozzle at them. then we have a huge problem.
the problem being that a gun, ANY GUN, being in the vicinity of ANY PERSON, man or women, is automatically very dangerous just b/c it exists.
If this were true, any civilian or officer could automatically be killed just b/c they are legally carrying a gun.

Wait!! I think what you're saying is just flat out wrong!

If the officers say the man pointed the nozzle at them in such a manner, it doesn't matter if he actually did in the context you are using this. If the officers state he did, and they are justified because of that, and he in fact didn't, it does not give other officers the ability to shoot people with guns...

Nobody is going to jump out from behind a table shouting "ha! We tricked you he really didn't! Now we can shoot all of you mofos"...

In fact, does this situation have any bearing on this? Probably not actually.

 

[clgustaveson]

Nobody has reported that he took the hose nozzle anywhere. He was seen with it on the porch, and shot and killed on the porch. He didn't take the hoze nozzle to any bars. These petty infractions that you are speculating to have occurred would not warrant his death sentence.

The dead drunk I am defending is any one of us. He didn't break any laws, some neighbor thought he was. And on private property no less. Sober or drunk, the cops never spoke a word to him so that's really not a factor. Anybody who carries for self-defense could get the cops called on us. Maybe you don't worry about that because you have the right credentials.

It is illegal to walk somewhere drunk as well. If he had walked around with the hose nozzle pointing it at people he would have still only broken one law... I think you're missing the point here.

He DID break a few laws, and he DID gather enough attention to have two people tell the police he was acting crazy and had a gun.

There is no parallel between "us" and him.

Theoretically you are drawing a parallel between us, law abiding gun owners, and a drunk man who acts recklessly and enters into public while intoxicated.

Probably not the parallel I am open to accepting but thanks. If you think this drunk man not behaving civilly is you then go ahead...

 

[grizman]

Ok, the responding officers took cover and observed the alleged BG while waiting on back up correct. That area is reported to be a confined area. If this is so why didn't anyone realize that what he had in his hand only resembled a hand gun in silhouette and that the proportion and shape of the muzzle was not consistent with any real firearm?
If this was as stated a confined area with multiple units sharing porch landings and stairways access points must be limited.
So we have by all accounts multiple officers in a position of cover observing one individual with limited egress options, yet no one thought it prudent to simply yell out, Police, you on the porch with the gun drop the weapon and get on face down now.

The opportunity and time was clearly present for a non lethal solution! Truth is the responding cops could tell the difference between a garden tool and a weapon! Never attempted to open communication! Over reacted and killed a man for no just reason.

If you are going to be a cop, and a professional one, responding to MWG calls don't you think you would want to learn to spot a real gun?
Just one more in a long history of police failures that get swept under the rug in order to avoid admission of fault.

FYI, after reading this I took my daughters to wally world and picked up a hose nozzle just like the one in the video and a toy 1911 brought them home and painted the red muzzle cap on the toy black. They each picked one I had no idea who had what, even at 100 ft I could tell the nozzle from the "gun" when pointed straight at me at first look! I guess I expect too much from the "professionals"!
Excuses!

 

[rambone]

It is illegal to walk somewhere drunk as well. If he had walked around with the hose nozzle pointing it at people he would have still only broken one law... I think you're missing the point here.

He DID break a few laws, and he DID gather enough attention to have two people tell the police he was acting crazy and had a gun.

I didn't see that he was walking in public after having a drink. If I'd have known that I would have shot him myself.

 

[Kick]

Would just like to point out that the police are not required to give any verbal commands to a person who is suspected to have a weapon before they shoot.

Most agencies have a policy that states "Verbal commands are encouraged when, possible to do so without endangering the public or other officers." However, they are not required before deadly force is used.

 

[clgustaveson]

I didn't see that he was walking in public after having a drink. If I'd have known that I would have shot him myself.

Oh there is no happy medium with you... haha

He walked to his friends place while drunk, I would give him a high five for not driving but he did break the law at multiple points.

We DONT have all the details, but I would guess walking from A - B does include public intox. I am not in LE yet but I would believe he was making the better decision by not driving, I think the guy made some good choices. No good deed goes unpunished.

I really don't feel that death was best outcome, I believe there was some disconnect in the situation.

I would like to point out though, as a private citizen I would react to the situation very similar if I am attempting to protect my family from a "gunman". I would rather not find out if the object being pointed at me is a gun until I have neutralized the thread. I wish I had better training in this area but currently all of my training revolves around pulling the trigger when someone seemingly is pointing a gun at me.

 

[clgustaveson]

Ok, the responding officers took cover and observed the alleged BG while waiting on back up correct. That area is reported to be a confined area. If this is so why didn't anyone realize that what he had in his hand only resembled a hand gun in silhouette and that the proportion and shape of the muzzle was not consistent with any real firearm?
If this was as stated a confined area with multiple units sharing porch landings and stairways access points must be limited.
So we have by all accounts multiple officers in a position of cover observing one individual with limited egress options, yet no one thought it prudent to simply yell out, Police, you on the porch with the gun drop the weapon and get on face down now.

The opportunity and time was clearly present for a non lethal solution! Truth is the responding cops could tell the difference between a garden tool and a weapon! Never attempted to open communication! Over reacted and killed a man for no just reason.

If you are going to be a cop, and a professional one, responding to MWG calls don't you think you would want to learn to spot a real gun?
Just one more in a long history of police failures that get swept under the rug in order to avoid admission of fault.

FYI, after reading this I took my daughters to wally world and picked up a hose nozzle just like the one in the video and a toy 1911 brought them home and painted the red muzzle cap on the toy black. They each picked one I had no idea who had what, even at 100 ft I could tell the nozzle from the "gun" when pointed straight at me at first look! I guess I expect too much from the "professionals"!
Excuses!

Next time give your daughters a shot of adrenaline and have the neighbors call them and tell them your drunk with a gun...

 

[clgustaveson]

Next time give your daughters a shot of adrenaline and have the neighbors call them and tell them your drunk with a gun...

I guess it is reasonable to point out that primed with certain information, an individual will spend less time identifying something.

During situations of extreme stress schemas play a very large roll in our cognitive processes. If it looks, smells, tastes, and SOUNDS like a gun then it would be very dificult to suggest otherwise. Esspecially when the appearance this item had did not fit the typical schema for water hose nozzle, and the "two handed" grip is a classic example of something that would preclude this item from many other categories.

When our minds are taxed with other daunting thoughts, we HAVE to use less processing power and schemas play a very large role.

 

[jeremy]

I guess it is reasonable to point out that primed with certain information, an individual will spend less time identifying something.

During situations of extreme stress schemas play a very large roll in our cognitive processes. If it looks, smells, tastes, and SOUNDS like a gun then it would be very dificult to suggest otherwise. Esspecially when the appearance this item had did not fit the typical schema for water hose nozzle, and the "two handed" grip is a classic example of something that would preclude this item from many other categories.

When our minds are taxed with other daunting thoughts, we HAVE to use less processing power and schemas play a very large role.

But yet thousands of Military Service-members apparently are capable of doing just this very thing...

 

[clgustaveson]

But yet thousands of Military Service-members apparently are capable of doing just this very thing...

Please don't try to fuel an argument, provide details. Not everyone here was in the military. I can think of some of my perceived differences but before I do can you explain and give a story perhaps?

Also "but yet"?? haha

 

[jeremy]

I personally think the Officers involved should have a new Jail constructed around them for their actions. They observed a man sitting in a common area. Surely during 5+ minutes on the scene the were capable of Noticing a Drunk who was probably bored and playing with a Garden Hose Nozzle. If they are incapable of telling the difference between a Garden Hose Nozzle and a Firearm at the distance of less than a 100' then they should have never been allowed to pass through whatever Training Program that they attended. Even my 5 year old Nephew is at least capable of this...

 

[clgustaveson]

I personally think the Officers involved should have a new Jail constructed around them for their actions. They observed a man sitting in a common area. Surely during 5+ minutes on the scene the were capable of Noticing a Drunk who was probably bored and playing with a Garden Hose Nozzle. If they are incapable of telling the difference between a Garden Hose Nozzle and a Firearm at the distance of less than a 100' then they should have never been allowed to pass through whatever Training Program that they attended. Even my 5 year old Nephew is at least capable of this...

Your five year old nephew likely does not have a well developed handgun schema. It would be likely your five year old nephew would probably not know what was in their hands at all.

 

[jeremy]

Your five year old nephew likely does not have a well developed handgun schema. It would be likely your five year old nephew would probably not know what was in their hands at all.

Apparently the Officers are not capable of making this kind of decision either in some kinda of timely manner...

 

[clgustaveson]

Apparently the Officers are not capable of making this kind of decision either in some kinda of timely manner...

They did make a decision... probably VERY rapidly. Why else would they have responded by calling in backup. The problem is not that they made a decision, the problem is we now know they made the incorrect one...

And I would like to substitute distinction for decision.

 

[jeremy]

They did make a decision... probably VERY rapidly. Why else would they have responded by calling in backup. The problem is not that they made a decision, the problem is we now know they made the incorrect one...

And I would like to substitute distinction for decision.

As myself and several others have pointed out. Hold them responsible for what they done, they committed Murder. Charge them and send them to Jail. There is no gray area to this one, it is really that black and white. They had several minutes to decide what was going on. Then they shot a drunk who was playing with a Garden Hose Nozzle.

 

[clgustaveson]

As myself and several others have pointed out. Hold them responsible for what they done, they committed Murder. Charge them and send them to Jail. There is no gray area to this one, it is really that black and white. They had several minutes to decide what was going on. Then they shot a drunk who was playing with a Garden Hose Nozzle.

They had several minutes to discern what was going on, they shot a man they thought had a gun.

They DID NOT shoot a man they thought had a hose nozzle.

Their intent was likely not malicious, they DID commit murder. The question is not whether or not they murdered someone, it is whether or not they were justified in their actions.

You can sit back and say you would have known it was a garden hose nozzle; however, I highly doubt that you would have.

This is a very circumstantial problem, it would be dificult to prove you would have known otherwise.