Lessons learned in the GPM shooting

[Cameramonkey]

You mean like the No Trespassing signs that my favorite dating site, Moms Demand Action, was giving out in 2014 and 2019 to downtown Indy businesses?

I mean, at least let them figure it out for themselves is all I'm sayin'.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I mean, at least let them figure it out for themselves is all I'm sayin'.

The New York lawyers that are driving the anti movement here in Indiana figured it out decades ago.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

One lesson learned is maybe @Kirk Freeman isnt 100% helpful to our side after reading the interview he did last week regarding no guns signs and how they are not law.

You know the comedy bit where the Barney Fife-esque good guy actually helps the bad guy accidentally by correcting him so that he can actually succeed in the crime? He kinda did that.

(paraphrased because I dont feel like digging it up) "No, just posting 'no guns' signs like the one at the mall doesn't carry any weight and they can only ask you to leave and nothing more. Now, if they would rewrite the sign to say it THIS way, they could enforce it and have you punished for it with no other warnings. That would be an effective sign to stop people from carrying on your property."

You arent helping, Kirk.

You wouldn't happen to remember where it was?

 

[Cameramonkey]

You wouldn't happen to remember where it was?

WRTV Investigates explains what a 'No Weapon' policy means legally

WRTV Investigates found a sign that simply says "no weapons" doesn't deny entry into an establishment even if someone is carrying a gun.

www.wrtv.com

 

[Timjoebillybob]

WRTV Investigates explains what a 'No Weapon' policy means legally

WRTV Investigates found a sign that simply says "no weapons" doesn't deny entry into an establishment even if someone is carrying a gun.

www.wrtv.com

Thank you much.

 

[chipbennett]

One lesson learned is maybe @Kirk Freeman isnt 100% helpful to our side after reading the interview he did last week regarding no guns signs and how they are not law.

You know the comedy bit where the Barney Fife-esque good guy actually helps the bad guy accidentally by correcting him so that he can actually succeed in the crime? He kinda did that.

(paraphrased because I dont feel like digging it up) "No, just posting 'no guns' signs like the one at the mall doesn't carry any weight and they can only ask you to leave and nothing more. Now, if they would rewrite the sign to say it THIS way, they could enforce it and have you punished for it with no other warnings. That would be an effective sign to stop people from carrying on your property."

You arent helping, Kirk.

This, to my knowledge remains nothing more than untested legal theory. To see if it would pass muster, there would be several hurdles (perhaps among others):

• Get a police officer to issue a criminal trespass based on nothing more than the sign
• Prove that the sign meets the statutory definition of a "verbal notification" specifically to the person in question
• Prove that the person in question actually saw, read, and understood the sign
• Prove that legislative intent for "no trespassing" signs applies in this circumstance and to such signage, when the statutes are intentionally silent on "no firearms" signs and give them no force of law

Unless/until someone is arrested, and that charge withstands legal scrutiny, I will continue to see this as nothing more than legal theory (even if suggested by excellent legal minds).

 

[chipbennett]

You mean like the No Trespassing signs that my favorite dating site, Moms Demand Action, was giving out in 2014 and 2019 to downtown Indy businesses?

What was the wording on those signs, and did anyone actually get arrested based only on those signs? If so, did such arrests actually lead to prosecution/conviction, based only on those signs?

Or, was it merely a toothless virtue-signal effort by the Bullying Mommies?

 

[nagantoid]

This, to my knowledge remains nothing more than untested legal theory. To see if it would pass muster, there would be several hurdles (perhaps among others):

• Get a police officer to issue a criminal trespass based on nothing more than the sign
• Prove that the sign meets the statutory definition of a "verbal notification" specifically to the person in question
• Prove that the person in question actually saw, read, and understood the sign
• Prove that legislative intent for "no trespassing" signs applies in this circumstance and to such signage, when the statutes are intentionally silent on "no firearms" signs and give them no force of law

Unless/until someone is arrested, and that charge withstands legal scrutiny, I will continue to see this as nothing more than legal theory (even if suggested by excellent legal minds).

This is sounding almost word for word like the arguments about clickwrap/shrinkwrap software licenses - and I believe those have been definitely determined to be unenforceable scary stickers with no more power than that of causing fear to the 0.00000000000000001% of people who read them.

 

[Mgderf]

Hopefully a lot of folks will reconsider their "carry gun rotation."


.

Made me reconsider my choice.
I have been carrying a snub nose .44spl 5 shot revolver.
While I am fairly proficient with this, it would not be a good choice for a 30-40 yard shot, not to mention the limited capacity.
I did carry speed loaders, but that was still only 15 rounds, and that would require two reloads.
I put the revolver in the safe and dug out the PT99.
A 5" barrel gives me a much better chance at a longer shot, and I get 17+1 rounds of 9mm in the gun, plus spare mags.
I'm giving up some comfort due to the tremendous difference in weight, but I will take uncomfortable over dead anyway.

 

[Mij]

Lessons learned? Well I am up in the air regarding what to carry now. I’ve been a wheel gun guy for so long I don’t know if I can change. But just like others I am considering a change to an auto loader. I’m going to start a serious attempt at a practice session on Wednesday with a few fellows that have carried autos for decades. I’m leaving in an hour to go to my LGS to see what’s available. I’ll make a decision after Wed. Don’t know if that’s a lesson but I know I’m going to investigate the possibility.

 

[Joniki]

Lessons learned? Well I am up in the air regarding what to carry now. I’ve been a wheel gun guy for so long I don’t know if I can change. But just like others I am considering a change to an auto loader. I’m going to start a serious attempt at a practice session on Wednesday with a few fellows that have carried autos for decades. I’m leaving in an hour to go to my LGS to see what’s available. I’ll make a decision after Wed. Don’t know if that’s a lesson but I know I’m going to investigate the possibility.

I was exactly like you with my EDC up until a few years ago. I switched over to a Springfield Armory 9 mm with the back strap safety. It feels safe and my shot groups improved over the wheel gun.

 

[88E30M50]

I have adjusted my carry routine a bit. After a range trip to practice a bit, I've gone back to a P229 or P226 for EDC. Both in 9mm. Those have dominated my carry routine for several years but typically in .357 Sig. I need to run 9mm and .357 Sig together to see which I tend to do better with.

 

[Route 45]

Good video here. Paul Harrell's take...

 

[thompal]

I don’t defend anything in Uvalde but there is a difference between being in the mess then fighting to get out and being out of the mess and rushing to get in.

I think there's probably also a big difference between being with almost 400 of your armed colleagues where you can think "someone else will surely do something" compared to realizing that you are the only one who can do anything. Also Eli acted so quickly that I don't think he even took the time to consider that.

 

[Mij]

I think there's probably also a big difference between being with almost 400 of your armed colleagues where you can think "someone else will surely do something" compared to realizing that you are the only one who can do anything. Also Eli acted so quickly that I don't think he even took the time to consider that.

Instinct and training coupled with mind set.

 

[TheWiredFox]

One lesson learned is maybe @Kirk Freeman isnt 100% helpful to our side after reading the interview he did last week regarding no guns signs and how they are not law.

You know the comedy bit where the Barney Fife-esque good guy actually helps the bad guy accidentally by correcting him so that he can actually succeed in the crime? He kinda did that.

(paraphrased because I dont feel like digging it up) "No, just posting 'no guns' signs like the one at the mall doesn't carry any weight and they can only ask you to leave and nothing more. Now, if they would rewrite the sign to say it THIS way, they could enforce it and have you punished for it with no other warnings. That would be an effective sign to stop people from carrying on your property."

You arent helping, Kirk.

I'm pretty sure Guy Relford stated that the law and punishment do NOT change based on what the sign says (in Indiana).
Criminal Trespass out of the business only if you continue to stay after you are told to leave.

 

[TheWiredFox]

Made me reconsider my choice.

He was generally talking about people who rotate through a selection of guns that all have different battery-of-arms, sight alignment, ergos, recoil, caliber, etc. on a daily or regular basis.
"I have 10 different guns I carry on 10 different days." (Like Colion Noir says he does.)
This implies "a lack of proficiency with ALL of them," versus "being VERY proficient with ONE of them."

 

[Route 45]

Made me reconsider my choice.
I have been carrying a snub nose .44spl 5 shot revolver.
While I am fairly proficient with this, it would not be a good choice for a 30-40 yard shot, not to mention the limited capacity.
I did carry speed loaders, but that was still only 15 rounds, and that would require two reloads.
I put the revolver in the safe and dug out the PT99.
A 5" barrel gives me a much better chance at a longer shot, and I get 17+1 rounds of 9mm in the gun, plus spare mags.
I'm giving up some comfort due to the tremendous difference in weight, but I will take uncomfortable over dead anyway.

You're much better armed with the PT99. Nothing you can stuff into the cylinder of a 5 shot 44 Special snub beats the advantages of any modern compact or full sized semiauto in 9mm and up. Better sights, better triggers, more sight radius, higher capacity, faster reloads. Even a subcompact like a Glock 27 .40 or a Shield 45 gives you all of those advantages, with good old bullets that start with a "4", and should be just as easy to carry as a 44 snub, if not more so.

I have a few revolvers, and really enjoy shooting them. But for defensive purposes out in the real world, to me at least, they are obsolete. Not saying they won't work...hell, a flintlock will work if you place your one shot in the right place. It's just that preparation for a deadly force encounter to defend myself and my loved ones is not a place where I want to give up obvious advantages for nostalgia and bravado.

 

[thompal]

This did make me rethink my edc. I had been carrying a Sig 938 with two extra mags. I was now looking at both a 5" Para Ordinance .45, or the 5" Springfield 9mm.
I know I wouldn't have felt comfortable engaging with the Sig from 40 yards.
It also made me think of the 50 yard shots as discussed upthread during range time.
This situation and the ranges involved certainly makes you open your eyes and think.
Not all self defense shots are that 7' scenario that the FBI stats talk about.

I'm going through the same thought. There's no way I could make repeated hits at 40 yards with the pocket .380 I carry in the summer.

 

[2-Alpha]

I was exactly like you with my EDC up until a few years ago. I switched over to a Springfield Armory 9 mm with the back strap safety. It feels safe and my shot groups improved over the wheel gun.

In slow fire my .357 will shoot groups 1/2 to 1/3 the size of either of my 9mm autos. So I’d have a better chance of making hits at 25+ yds with the wheelgun. But it 2x the size and 3x the weight, so now it only gets carried when I’m on the “farm” and am more worried about possible shots at small furry critters than concealment.

I’m not changing my EDC. I’ve shot USPSA matches with both the 9mm and the .357 and know I can get hits up to at least 15 yd with either.