Lessons learned in the GPM shooting

[jbombelli]

My take on it is that they are signs created by head office (which may be in some haplophobic state) to standardize firearm policy countrywide, ignoring the fact that, say, semi-rural Indiana is not the same place as Los Angeles. The signs give the mall the power to trespass people out if they're making shoppers nervous, and I think that's the main point - especially for the signs that are specific about "no open carry".

One thing this incident sure taught me is that the news morons do _not_ understand preemption laws. "OMG they had a no guns sign, he was carrying illegally". No he wasn't. In Indiana, those signs have no force of law. I can put up a sign that says "You MUST be wearing green underwear to enter this mall". Unless I check, I won't know what you're wearing. If your pants happen to fall down, and you're wearing tighty whities underneath, all I can do is say "I don't want you on my premises, please leave", at which point you must leave or I can have you arrested for trespass. In the case of someone concealed carrying in "violation" of one of these signs, that conversation won't happen until after the shooting finishes. Ergo, those signs can and should be completely ignored.

(this does not apply in regions, eg Tennessee, where private "no guns" signs DO have force of law. I really hate having to leave my EDC in the car when I'm shopping in Nashville, but there you have it...)

Here, in Indiana, those signs don't give a business the power to trespass you out. They can do that already, for any reason they want. They don't need a sign for that.

 

[chipbennett]

Here, in Indiana, those signs don't give a business the power to trespass you out. They can do that already, for any reason they want. They don't need a sign for that.

Probably just saying the same thing a different way, but: I think the point is that, in Indiana, a "No Trespassing" sign and a "No Firearms" sign are not statutorily equivalent, and the latter does not statutorily imply the former. As you say: an owner can trespass anyone, for any reason, firearm-related or otherwise.

 

[LtScott14]

A lot of great posts in this thread. Many common good ideas we should all consider.

Carry a mid to full size EDC firearm. Yes, spare mags too. Training...Yes.
Keep your small gun as a BUG(Back up gun). Tactical light, cellphone, tactical knife all good to have on person.
Teach Wifey to carry too. Backup is minutes away? Learn to use quiet sign language! It's not always the best to yell in a terror situation.(Someone should write a book about 10 ways to get killed).
Know to secure your EDC, and expect to be searched by responding Police. Prolly cuffed till scene is figured out. Possibly transported to station, too.
Don't give away your location unless the balloon goes up. Then engage to stop the attacker from doing more damage. Reload if you can, might have an accomplice close! Offer first aid, even get a basic course from Red Cross.
Keep reading and learn from all who wish to share info. Strength is knowledge. Good luck.

 

[mark40sw]

Also, guns are NOT magical.
If 15 people form 3 lines of 5 (left, right, side) and run at the gunman, he's not gonna be able to get everyone.

May be difficult to find volunteers to be in that front row.

 

[mark40sw]

Next up for me is that 9mm did the job as an unqualified success. I’m a .40 guy that has always preferred .40, .357 Sig or .45. I do carry 9mm but feel better with a larger caliber. This shoot changes that for me somewhat.

The perpetrator took 8 hits (10 fired). Without knowing details of where the hits occurred and how many it took to stop his attack, "unqualified success" may not be accurate.

 

[actaeon277]

May be difficult to find volunteers to be in that front row.

I would
Still better chances than hiding behind a desk.

 

[bobzilla]

I would
Still better chances than hiding behind a desk.

+1

 

[nagantoid]

"The guy who WON THE GUNFIGHT was severely outgunned. What's that tell you? Surprise, speed, ferocity of attack. Focus on that. Get good at that. Be mentally prepared for that. DOING SOMETHING and gaining the initiative, then keeping that initiative until the bad guy can not effectively fight back, wins fights. If you have the element of surprise and use it properly, your odds of prevailing are huge."

Thank you for this, BBI

I'll back a normal sane citizen carrying a weapon as part of his daily routine against a lunatic mass murder wannabe every time. In addition to everything you said, this is a classic example of "expecting a soft target" - the criminal went in there assuming he would cause panic, not expecting an armed response.

 

[nagantoid]

Here, in Indiana, those signs don't give a business the power to trespass you out. They can do that already, for any reason they want. They don't need a sign for that.

Well, yes - perfectly true. But they give the mall cop something you "should have known" to point to when they're kicking you out - like "no skateboarding, no soliciting, no dogs on roller blades, no breakdancing" etc stuff you see on mall entrances.

 

[2A_Tom]

I would
Still better chances than hiding behind a desk.

@actaeon277 I am not trying to be a smart a**, but...

So, do you coordinate an active shooter defensive plan at the beginning of every meeting you attend?

I fear that if everyone doesn't know your plan, sou will be the only counterattacker.

On flight 93 it took a while to decide to counter. Time you do not have in an active shooter situation.

 

[BiscuitsandGravy]

Another classic from BBI... "Don't suck with what you carry".

Might kick it up from 8 x 357sig Underwoods (P239) to 14x (P229).

 

[actaeon277]

@actaeon277 I am not trying to be a smart a**, but...

So, do you coordinate an active shooter defensive plan at the beginning of every meeting you attend?

I fear that if everyone doesn't know your plan, sou will be the only counterattacker.

On flight 93 it took a while to decide to counter. Time you do not have in an active shooter situation.

If you're in the 1st class, odds are against you.
If you're not, then teach.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Some food for thought...

None of us ever fire with the anticipation that we are going to miss. BUT...

One thing that appears to be the case is that once our young hero engaged the shooter, he turned and tried to return to the ****house that spawned him. Like all others of his ilk, he was a sniveling coward.

We'll never know where Eli's eight hits were in his sequence of ten shots. But the critical issue is that whatever the sequence he broke off the attack and lives were saved. Did the little puke only run after he was hit? Or just because there were slugs whistling past him?

The name of the game is what I always made a point of impressing on new, young cops when they came under my command. When you roll up on a scene where all hell is breaking loose and terrified citizens are looking to you to protect them, no matter how scared you are yourself, you always have this mandate:

DO SOMETHING!!!!!

Did Eli hit him with his first two rounds? We don't know and I contend that it doesn't matter. Once the little ahole met resistance he ran. If Eli had MISSED with all ten rounds the little monster would have barricaded himself in the crapper and the same number of lives would have been saved.

In my lawdog days when I went to the range to qualify I could hit my man at the fifty yard line every time. Of course that was WITHOUT my heart trying to pound itself out of my chest due to stress and terror.

Can I still do it with these old eyes? Dunno. Provided I have a safe backstop with no innocent taxpayers in danger, I'm sure gonna try.

 

[DN40SW]

My take on it is that they are signs created by head office (which may be in some haplophobic state) to standardize firearm policy countrywide, ignoring the fact that, say, semi-rural Indiana is not the same place as Los Angeles. The signs give the mall the power to trespass people out if they're making shoppers nervous, and I think that's the main point - especially for the signs that are specific about "no open carry".

One thing this incident sure taught me is that the news morons do _not_ understand preemption laws. "OMG they had a no guns sign, he was carrying illegally". No he wasn't. In Indiana, those signs have no force of law. I can put up a sign that says "You MUST be wearing green underwear to enter this mall". Unless I check, I won't know what you're wearing. If your pants happen to fall down, and you're wearing tighty whities underneath, all I can do is say "I don't want you on my premises, please leave", at which point you must leave or I can have you arrested for trespass. In the case of someone concealed carrying in "violation" of one of these signs, that conversation won't happen until after the shooting finishes. Ergo, those signs can and should be completely ignored.

(this does not apply in regions, eg Tennessee, where private "no guns" signs DO have force of law. I really hate having to leave my EDC in the car when I'm shopping in Nashville, but there you have it...)

Simon Headquarters are in downtown Indy. But a lot of multistate companies go with more restrictive policies to cover different state's laws.

 

[Amishman44]

Before the dupe police shut this one down, this is not a dupe of the break room discussion, but instead a focus on what we can learn or confirm from the Greenwood Park Mall shooting. The Break Room discussion is largely political, this one is more practical.
Let’s talk through the shooting in the Greenwood Park Mall to see if it changes any commonly held truths. First up for me is that ‘No Guns’ signs are only an insurance requirement and EVERYONE on the thinking side of the earth acknowledges that. Even Simon Property Group is thanking the Armed Samaritan for ignoring their signs.
Next up for me is that 9mm did the job as an unqualified success. I’m a .40 guy that has always preferred .40, .357 Sig or .45. I do carry 9mm but feel better with a larger caliber. This shoot changes that for me somewhat.
Third, capacity matters. If the Armed Samaritan were carrying a J-frame, Sig 238 or other small pocket sized pistol, would he have been able to succeed as he did? Would 5 or 6 rounds from a small pistol been enough to allow successful engagement? That would be a tough call.
Another issue is training. There are many on this site that have said that it’s irresponsible to carry without formal training. This shooting shows that responsibility is required for gaining skills and training is just one path to that goal. Discipline and practice go a long way. Training is great but the same skills can be obtained in other ways.
The biggest lesson here to me though, is mindset. The Armed Samaritan seems to have had a clarity in mission amid a chaotic situation. Each of his actions look to be purposeful and well executed.

88E30M50...I'll go with this as a great overall response...and I concur 100%!!!
'No Gun' signs, to me, is usually a sign to stay away or be armed...discretely...but armed!
I, too, have been more of a .40 S&W, .357SIG, and .45 ACP guy...and with the knowledge that 9mm has made significant improvements over the past 10-15+ years...with the understanding that 9mm had nowhere to go but up!
Many times I have been very comfortable with a 5-shot, J-Frame snubbie in .38 special or .357 magnum (110 grain only) and, when all alone or out at dad's on the farm, have never felt the need for anything more.
I've actually acquired a few 9mm pistols and, recently, the Glock 45 has become my favorite...so much so that I've sold off several others that I did not favor as much...and with the match grade barrel in the Gen 5, I have been impressed with its accuracy, even at farther distances even past 50'!
The biggest part of your statement is the mention of the 'mindset' that the Armed Samaritan had including a clarity of mission in a chaotic situation...in keeping a clear mind and the ability to function under extreme duress!
When one understands the changes that occur in an individual's brain, how the amygdala manages the emotions and brain function...and especially how it affects the body during extreme duress...it's amazing that this kid functioned this well in that acute situation! Not everyone could of or would have responded in the way the kid did...or was well as he did!

 

[nagantoid]

88E30M50...I'll go with this as a great overall response...and I concur 100%!!!
'No Gun' signs, to me, is usually a sign to stay away or be armed...discretely...but armed!
I, too, have been more of a .40 S&W, .357SIG, and .45 ACP guy...and with the knowledge that 9mm has made significant improvements over the past 10-15+ years...with the understanding that 9mm had nowhere to go but up!
Many times I have been very comfortable with a 5-shot, J-Frame snubbie in .38 special or .357 magnum (110 grain only) and, when all alone or out at dad's on the farm, have never felt the need for anything more.
I've actually acquired a few 9mm pistols and, recently, the Glock 45 has become my favorite...so much so that I've sold off several others that I did not favor as much...and with the match grade barrel in the Gen 5, I have been impressed with its accuracy, even at farther distances even past 50'!
The biggest part of your statement is the mention of the 'mindset' that the Armed Samaritan had including a clarity of mission in a chaotic situation...in keeping a clear mind and the ability to function under extreme duress!
When one understands the changes that occur in an individual's brain, how the amygdala manages the emotions and brain function...and especially how it affects the body during extreme duress...it's amazing that this kid functioned this well in that acute situation! Not everyone could of or would have responded in the way the kid did...or was well as he did!

Drifting off topic, but I tip my hat to your choices... maybe not for the same reasons you chose them. I am all about wheelgun as EDC because under stress, it has a very simple protocol: point and click. No bang? Click again. I don't need to think about carrying in condition 1/2/3/4, I don't need to think about clearing an F2F - I draw, aim and pull trigger. Lather, rinse, repeat.

 

[actaeon277]

Drifting off topic, but I tip my hat to your choices... maybe not for the same reasons you chose them. I am all about wheelgun as EDC because under stress, it has a very simple protocol: point and click. No bang? Click again. I don't need to think about carrying in condition 1/2/3/4, I don't need to think about clearing an F2F - I draw, aim and pull trigger. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Revolvers are great.
But they are not perfect.
They can lock up. And then they are a paperweight.

 

[Cameramonkey]

One lesson learned is maybe @Kirk Freeman isnt 100% helpful to our side after reading the interview he did last week regarding no guns signs and how they are not law.

You know the comedy bit where the Barney Fife-esque good guy actually helps the bad guy accidentally by correcting him so that he can actually succeed in the crime? He kinda did that.

(paraphrased because I dont feel like digging it up) "No, just posting 'no guns' signs like the one at the mall doesn't carry any weight and they can only ask you to leave and nothing more. Now, if they would rewrite the sign to say it THIS way, they could enforce it and have you punished for it with no other warnings. That would be an effective sign to stop people from carrying on your property."

You arent helping, Kirk.

 

[nagantoid]

Revolvers are great.
But they are not perfect.
They can lock up. And then they are a paperweight.

100% agree. Any machine is just a machine - and everything works until it fails. (I have 25yo and 20yo cars that are proof positive of this... ). Overall, I just look at the procedures and protocols for a semi auto vs a revolver and the probabilities lead me to say "if I'm in a stress situation, let me pick the machine that involves me in the least thinking". I could use an FP-45 Liberator to defend myself, but after the first shot I would need to mess about with a stick and so on to reload it... same concept.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

One lesson learned is maybe @Kirk Freeman isnt 100% helpful to our side after reading the interview he did last week regarding no guns signs and how they are not law.

You know the comedy bit where the Barney Fife-esque good guy actually helps the bad guy accidentally by correcting him so that he can actually succeed in the crime? He kinda did that.

(paraphrased because I dont feel like digging it up) "No, just posting 'no guns' signs like the one at the mall doesn't carry any weight and they can only ask you to leave and nothing more. Now, if they would rewrite the sign to say it THIS way, they could enforce it and have you punished for it with no other warnings. That would be an effective sign to stop people from carrying on your property."

You arent helping, Kirk.

You mean like the No Trespassing signs that my favorite dating site, Moms Demand Action, was giving out in 2014 and 2019 to downtown Indy businesses?