LEO Carries and Calibers

[VERT]

Edit: double post

 

[Hemingway]

(

Haha. Did you see the mythbusters episode on grips and stances? Gangsta style did surprisingly well. So did guns akimbo, which I found shocking, too, especially for two fairly untrained guys.

Grip and stance has nothing to do with where the bullets end up, just how you can control the gun afterward (grip) and how you control yourself afterward (stance). )

Feds seem to mostly carry Glocks.

FAM's used to carry 229's, maybe still do.

FBI carries G22 with the Winchester 165 gr JHP

 

[williamsburg]

the tennessee highway patrol carries the glock 31 and sevierville police carry glocks 22/23. thp is only office i know of the carries the 357 sig.

 

[sharpetop]

If you follow the link, it's from their first day of firearms training for the new recruits, I'm sure they've gotten him sorted.

I've seen Excise with M&Ps, and our local Sheriff seems to be a mix of Glocks and M&Ps.

When looking beyond Indiana, FL,GA, NY, PA and SC all carry Full size Glocks in .45GAP. OH and MI carry the Sig P226 (Learning the Patrol Shotgun « MSP Recruits)
IL carries the G22 and Last I heard KY was issuing the G35 with a G27 for a backup

Not only their first day, but it looks to me like they are shooting with their week hand. They are shooting left handed and I don't see a holster on the left side of their bodies.

Unless you shoot week handed regularly, it's pretty hard to get a perfect grip.

 

[semperfi211]

WTH is up with the hole in his hand??

I don't know. Maybe it's a birth defect or an old puncture wound from a accident.

 

[Tydeeh22]

i want more interest in the Glock 37/38/39 please. prices of gap ammo irritate me. must have more demand so more ppl produce it thus driving prices down. thanks.

 

[brockgarrison4112]

Glock 23 with Speer Gold dot
glock 27 bcak up also with Speer Gold dot

 

[.452browning]

I know 2 Morgan county deputy's. One carries a Glock 23 and the other carries a Glock 22. Both carry Glock 27 off duty.

A Marion county warrant officer/us marshal I'm friends with carries a Kimber 1911 and also has Glock 22.

FBI agent that lives down the road carries Glock 21.

I'm pretty sure the Morgan county Mounties carry cor bon but I'm not sure

 

[NIFT]

(

Grip and stance has nothing to do with where the bullets end up, just how you can control the gun afterward (grip) and how you control yourself afterward (stance). )

Grip and stance has [sic] nothing to do with where the bullets end up?

Are you serious? Can you shoot a handgun just as accurately while standing on your head and holding the gun upside down in your weak hand while pulling the trigger with your pinky finger?

I observe students' accuracy ("where the bullets end up") increase immediately by holding the gun correctly. Happens all the time. It will happen, again, starting tomorrow, in the Basic Pistol class I will be teaching.

I strongly disagree with your negative flat assertion.

 

[NIFT]

FBI carries G22 with the Winchester 165 gr JHP

Unless there has been a very recent change at the FBI, new, graduating Special Agents from the Quantico Academy have the choice of either the Glock 22 or Glock 23. There is a small number of "approved" handguns SAs are allowed to carry, but the G22 and G23 are the issue guns.

Issue ammunition is Winchester Q4355, using a 180 gr. bonded bullet.
The exact same ammunition, per Paul Nowak of Winchester, is the PDX-1, which is the commercial version of the Q4355--same ammo, coming off the same machines as the Q4355.

The only two differences are: the PDX-1 comes in cool looking 20-round boxes with raised metallic letters, and it costs a lot more than the Q4355!

If the above is in error, then there have been some very recent changes.

 

[squish]

Talked to a guy that is going to be a reserve for Salem. Told me that. 40 was the required cartridge. I got the impression that he could choose his gun but Glock or Sig was reccomended. He choose a Glock 22 and has to supply his own duty ammo.

I too reserve for Salem.....40 S&W is the caliber, and the dept provided my service and qualification ammo. it's a liability thing. I buy all my practice ammo.

 

[Kutnupe14]

We carry (CPD), G22/23. Federal Hydra shock

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

FAM's used to carry 229's, maybe still do.

229 + 2 reloads or a 239 + 4 reloads, in .357Sig, of course. 125gr Speer Gold Dots

-J-

 

[VERT]

I too reserve for Salem.....40 S&W is the caliber, and the dept provided my service and qualification ammo. it's a liability thing. I buy all my practice ammo.

Are you the guy i talked to? Probably not.

Now that makes complete sense about ammo. The conversation went that he asked about carrying .45 but was told gun had to be .40. Went on to say practice ammo was provided. But mentioned how expensive the defense ammo was. When I asked why the department did not provide that he said he had to buy his own. My guess is that he is just starting the process and misunderstood. Makes sense that the department standardized on a particular cartridge and maybe has a list of approved guns.

What do you carry as a reserve? What ammo is issued? What is the choice of other officers?

 

[Hemingway]

Issue ammunition is Winchester Q4355, using a 180 gr. bonded bullet.
The exact same ammunition, per Paul Nowak of Winchester, is the PDX-1, which is the commercial version of the Q4355--same ammo, coming off the same machines as the Q4355.

You are correct, I was looking at the wrong box. The 165 is the practice round, 180 carry rounds. Sorry for the mix-up. This is the last year of the contract--we'll see what happens.

Grip and stance has [sic] nothing to do with where the bullets end up?

Are you serious? Can you shoot a handgun just as accurately while standing on your head and holding the gun upside down in your weak hand while pulling the trigger with your pinky finger?

I strongly disagree with your negative flat assertion.

I absolutely stand behind this 100%. I can prove it to you in 30 seconds on the range.

Better yet, you can prove it yourself. When you go to the range, hold the gun strong-hand only with just your thumb on the backstrap and your index finger on the trigger. All other fingers and your support hand off the gun. That's about as bad a grip as you can possibly get and still hold the gun.

Now, keep the sights aligned and squeeze the trigger. If you've done those 2 things correctly, the bullet will hit where you aimed.

Next, try it your way, gun upside down, squeezing with your pinky. If your sights are aligned and you perform a proper trigger pull, the bullet will impact where you aim.

Now, obviously these aren't the ideal grips. The gun may fall out of your hand after each shot. That is why I stress that grip is only for what happens AFTER the shot, i.e., recoil management.

When instructors drill it into students' heads that grip affects accuracy, you have students all day on the range wondering,

"Am I squeezing 65% with my support hand, or only 55%?"

"If I move my support thumb 15 degrees more forward, maybe then my rounds will hit what I'm aiming."

They worry so much about that, I waste a good deal of range time overcoming that misconception.

I will stand by my negative flat assertion that grip is important for running the gun, but sight alignment and trigger pull are the only things that determine where the bullet hits.

 

[VERT]

can't say you are wrong Hemingway, but going to be hard to squeeze the trigger correctly with a bad grip. Not to mention recoil and malfunctions. Lets not forget fingers and hands getting bit by the slide. Wouldn't it be easier just to show them a proper grip? I would agree that one grip might not be comfortable for every shooter.

 

[Hemingway]

can't say you are wrong Hemingway, but going to be hard to squeeze the trigger correctly with a bad grip. Not to mention recoil and malfunctions. Lets not forget fingers and hands getting bit by the slide. Wouldn't it be easier just to show them a proper grip? I would agree that one grip might not be comfortable for every shooter.

You are 100% right. No sense teaching them a bad grip. And as I said, grip is for recoil, no doubt.

My point is simply this: I've seen hundreds of students think that they are not hitting the target because their grip is off 1/20". And they develop this because there are so many instructors out there telling them that accuracy is a direct product of grip. A guy isn't hitting dead center and it's easier for an instructor to say, "Put your support thumb forward more" than it is to diagnose his trigger issue. So, students have it engrained in their being that if I can just squeeze it tighter/looser/ 60/40 or 70/30 or whatever the current ratio is fashionable, then all of their shooting woes will dissappear. Grip manages recoil, prevents biting of the slide and all the things you mentioned.

But, when people have a good grip and they still aren't hitting, I've seen them readjust their grip over and over and over again, when trigger mastery is the key, not grip.

Ever see somebody that shoots tight groups when you look at his target but if you didn't see his target and you looked only at how he was gripping the weapon, you'd tell him he was way wrong? I have seen plenty of them. Their grip looks like crap but they are shooting fast and accurate.

Conversely, I've seen some Sevigny-like quality gripping with guys that can't hit the entire sheet.

To be clear, I'm not saying grip doesn't matter, I'm simply saying that sight alignment and trigger pull determine exactly where the bullet hits. The grip matters when it comes to how fast you can be ready to do the sight alignment and trigger pull again.


Now that this thread is thoroughly hi-jacked ...

 

[NIFT]

When instructors drill it into students' heads that grip affects accuracy, you have students all day on the range wondering,

"Am I squeezing 65% with my support hand, or only 55%?"

"If I move my support thumb 15 degrees more forward, maybe then my rounds will hit what I'm aiming."

They worry so much about that, I waste a good deal of range time overcoming that misconception.

Another flat assertion, also incorrect.
I don't know what you are doing to get students that wonder and worry all day abouit the grip. I have not encountered such.

Your modified positon saying that as long as the sights are aligned properly and the sight picture is correct when the shot breaks, it will be accurate regardless of how the gun is held is correct. However, gripping the gun correctly facilitates keeping the gun steady and accurately aimed when the shot breaks.

The first, most important shooting fundamental is aiming (sight alignment and sight picture.) The second is trigger control, which is the most challenging to master. The third is how the gun is held, which either facilitates the first two or makes them more difficult. Therefore, a correct grip does affect "where the bullets end up." I don't teach students that it doesn't matter how the gun is held--that aiming (sight alignment and sight picture) is all that affects accuracy. Instead, I put holding the gun in its proper perspective.

I continue to disagree, both here and with your earlier statement, "Grip and stance has [sic] nothing to do with where the bullets end up."

 

[Hemingway]

I will assume we have mutually exclusive sets of students, then

I see more students trying to adjust their grip all day than any other type of adjustment. To be clear, I DO NOT make the students wonder about trying to guess what percentage they should be squeezing which hand with. I have never taught that and will never teach that. Under stress it will be 100%/100%.

However, they've picked it up along the way, along with other useless detritus like, "Weaver/Modified Weaver/Isosceles is always right/wrong/whatever." And all the other myths regurgitated on internet forums and gun magazines like you can only walk a certain way when firing, elbows have to be locked, can never be locked, you can never point the weapon anywhere but down range, etc.

I'll just bow out of this discussion since I doubt we'll ever agree and I don't want to cause hard feelings. I'm glad you are in instructor and you seem to know what you are doing. I wish you the best and hope you continue to support training with firearms.


EDIT: I just clicked on a link in another thread about the new .358 Hoosier caliber and accidentally stumbled upon this article at GUNS. http://www.guns.com/concentrate-on-your-finger-trigger-control-and-what-it-means-to-accuracy.html

 

[elwoodward]

Talked to a guy that is going to be a reserve for Salem. Told me that. 40 was the required cartridge. I got the impression that he could choose his gun but Glock or Sig was reccomended. He choose a Glock 22 and has to supply his own duty ammo.

Must supply own duty ammo? For the sheriffs dept. i know a 40 is mandatory unless you want to buy your own practice ammo and duty ammo. I know a guy that carried a 9mm for years then went to 40 due to cost of ammo. Why buy when you can get a 40 and get it for free. Salem city might be different but full time are supplied ammo. i don't see why reserves are not. ill ask a friend his dad is a reserve and he is in the process of becoming one.

Also i know this is a "i heard from a friend start" but my friends uncle works for Seymour Pd was also on SWAT they can carry what ever they want as long as they can qualify with it. That info was as of 2009. SOPs might have changed since then.