Knife fighting/training open discussion of methods.

[the1kidd03]

Test your theory.

I do regularly. (as often as my schedule will allow me to train that is.) Knife and hand to hand is my "favorite" form of training. I spend a good deal of time on weapons, but realistically you're more likely to be in hand to hand than to have to use the gun and so I train accordingly.

 

[the1kidd03]

Yeah, if you overextend, what I like about pikal is if the aggressor overextends I can hook that wrist, pull you further off balance while cutting the tendons, etc. that allow you to make a fist, hold a weapon, etc. As soon as that foot is planted to stay on your feet, they're in big trouble.

Of course. That's my entire point. Let THEM overextend. Don't "rush" into thinking you need to strike first (assuming you're at stand off distance.)

 

[Dragon]

I'm not trying to bust your balls here, the1kidd03 and hacksawfg, but you're saying that you're quick enough to react to someone's movement knife in hand, trap that movement before it gets to you and make a cut without being stabbed in say the eye, throat, or heart?

I've practiced trapping over the past 8 years of TCMA and I would say that I'm more than proficient at it, but I would never attempt techniques like that to counter a knife attack. Too unreliable and too many variables to accomplish it safely. By safely I mean minimizing damage to myself. My teacher has always taught us that our goal should be to walk away having done more damage than we've suffered, so this is where my entire philosophy has derived from.

 

[hacksawfg]

Of course. That's my entire point. Let THEM overextend. Don't "rush" into thinking you need to strike first (assuming you're at stand off distance.)

I would never strike first, always about self-defense. I don't foresee myself being the aggressor in a knife fight anytime soon. My goal is to give the aggressor pause to reconsider the course of their actions and the possible consequences.

 

[rockhopper46038]

What I learned about knife fighting ain't much, but I trained for long enough to know that running away is by far the best option. If your opponent is completely untrained, you can probably win and get away relatively unscathed, but although it takes lots and lots of training to become an expert with a knife, it doesn't take more than a few months before you can get good enough to almost guarantee you will land a cut. To me this makes engaging in a knife fight an incredible risky proposition. Even if I'm "better", I'm likely to get cut, and "winning" the fight but bleeding out before you can get to help is not much of a victory. I run.

 

[Dragon]

I'll just say outright, no offense to your methods or frame of mind when it comes to this scenario but if you wait for the other person to strike first, you might be dead before you get to react. Are you willing to risk that?

 

[the1kidd03]

I would never strike first, always about self-defense. I don't foresee myself being the aggressor in a knife fight anytime soon. My goal is to give the aggressor pause to reconsider the course of their actions and the possible consequences.

Agreed. A lot of the military training focuses on "offensive" which can be adjusted for defense, but now that I'm not active I've been shifting my focus to "defensive" more so than before and on what I'm more likely to come across such as pistol defense rather than team rifle combatives.

 

[the1kidd03]

When I discern "offense" or "defense" assume I'm referring to a situation where you can see your attacker and you are currently at "stand off" distance. Of course, in a real life situation this is rarely the circumstances though. The person to initiate the aggression at stand off distance, is going to try to use their reach to avoid being cut themselves. Exposing balance and muscular vulnerabilities.

I'll just say outright, no offense to your methods or frame of mind when it comes to this scenario but if you wait for the other person to strike first, you might be dead before you get to react. Are you willing to risk that?

Did you read the above quoted post?

and, I've risked it before.

 

[hacksawfg]

I'm not trying to bust your balls here, the1kidd03 and hacksawfg, but you're saying that you're quick enough to react to someone's movement knife in hand, trap that movement before it gets to you and make a cut without being stabbed in say the eye, throat, or heart?

I've practiced trapping over the past 8 years of TCMA and I would say that I'm more than proficient at it, but I would never attempt techniques like that to counter a knife attack. Too unreliable and too many variables to accomplish it safely. By safely I mean minimizing damage to myself. My teacher has always taught us that our goal should be to walk away having done more damage than we've suffered, so this is where my entire philosophy has derived from.

Not at all have I ever said I can avoid damage. I'll sacrifice whatever to protect the face, neck, heart, etc., but if that person is close enough to me to hit one of those spots, forward, reverse, or pikal isn't going to make a bit of difference as far as whether or not I can reach him. One would hope that anyone with the slightest bit of common sense would avoid a knife fight altogether - my goal is to defensively prevent as much damage as possible, hopefully by preventing the fight in the first place. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, I know I need to get better with forward grip, but for me, an icepick style grip with a 4" blade double edged dagger will allow me to do plenty of damage IF I'm in a confrontation AND it gets in close enough that the aggressor can reach the body.

 

[Dragon]

Asking the1kidd03

You've been in a knife fight?

 

[Dragon]

Not at all have I ever said I can avoid damage. I'll sacrifice whatever to protect the face, neck, heart, etc., but if that person is close enough to me to hit one of those spots, forward, reverse, or pikal isn't going to make a bit of difference as far as whether or not I can reach him. One would hope that anyone with the slightest bit of common sense would avoid a knife fight altogether - my goal is to defensively prevent as much damage as possible, hopefully by preventing the fight in the first place. I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert, I know I need to get better with forward grip, but for me, an icepick style grip with a 4" long double edged dagger will allow me to do plenty of damage IF I'm in a confrontation AND it gets in close enough that the aggressor can reach the body.

I think you hit one of the nails on the head with this quote. "my goal is to defensively prevent as much damage as possible, hopefully by preventing the fight in the first place." This says to me that you at least have a grasp of what you need to be doing, but the reality is that in order for you to win the fight you have to attack right? So if our goal is to not die, then we must protect vital areas and inflict enough damage to stop the attack? Would you agree? If so, offense is required. Agreed?

 

[the1kidd03]

What I learned about knife fighting ain't much, but I trained for long enough to know that running away is by far the best option. If your opponent is completely untrained, you can probably win and get away relatively unscathed, but although it takes lots and lots of training to become an expert with a knife, it doesn't take more than a few months before you can get good enough to almost guarantee you will land a cut. To me this makes engaging in a knife fight an incredible risky proposition. Even if I'm "better", I'm likely to get cut, and "winning" the fight but bleeding out before you can get to help is not much of a victory. I run.

My personal belief in order of necessary training for civilian life is:
1. Medical- trauma, first aid, CPR, etc (this can apply anywhere and be very useful so it should be a priority as it is most likely to be used in your lifetime.)
2. Hand to hand combatives to include unarmed weapons defense (this is above firearms defense because it is likely that if attacked you will not have time/ability to get your firearm deployed effectively)
3. Home defensive firearm
4. Defensive pistol for outside the home
5. Fill in as desired

3 and 4 are interchangeable depending on one's preference. Personally, I think it's more likely that my home will be broken into than I will be put into a position to use my sidearm outside my home (even though I've been in such situations). If you wanted to include SA as a separate category, I would personally place it in #2.

In regards to trying to avoid such situations and running, of course I whole heartedly agree. That is always the best option and why I believe your SA should be one of the highest on anyone's training list. But it's important to know or HAVE these skills in case you are in a situation which doesn't allow you to run (protecting family, etc). All else, you are exactly right. "Run when you can."

 

[the1kidd03]

Asking the1kidd03

You've been in a knife fight?

I train for it (both in military and now as a civilian) as well as study various martial arts. I do not claim to be an expert on anything. Everything here has been based off my training and experience. I have not been in a real combative situation in use of blades, but have in hand to hand as well as with firearms. As stated before, I focus on hand to hand and knife training now. Knife is simply fun training, IMO and hand to hand is the most likely to be used as a civilian. While I have not been in a situation to use a knife for defense, I have been severely cut and/or injured.

 

[the1kidd03]

I think you hit one of the nails on the head with this quote. "my goal is to defensively prevent as much damage as possible, hopefully by preventing the fight in the first place." This says to me that you at least have a grasp of what you need to be doing, but the reality is that in order for you to win the fight you have to attack right? So if our goal is to not die, then we must protect vital areas and inflict enough damage to stop the attack? Would you agree? If so, offense is required. Agreed?

I think you're getting too derailed by my use of the "offense/defense" terminology for a specific scenario.

 

[hacksawfg]

I think you hit one of the nails on the head with this quote. "my goal is to defensively prevent as much damage as possible, hopefully by preventing the fight in the first place." This says to me that you at least have a grasp of what you need to be doing, but the reality is that in order for you to win the fight you have to attack right? So if our goal is to not die, then we must protect vital areas and inflict enough damage to stop the attack? Would you agree? If so, offense is required. Agreed?

Agreed, but again, my goal is to prevent the confrontation. I'm not going to go after a person unless he has actually attempted an attack, at which point range will probably not matter. If he wants keeps his distance because I also have a knife, that's fine with me - I'm not usually alone in hostile areas, and hopefully my yelling will draw the police or get someone to call them. If it gets close though, you'd better believe that my first goal is to do whatever I can to minimize the range of movement of that knife hand so I can strike at will with mine. I don't foresee myself having to fight too many military types or well-trained individuals, because they typically understand the fact that in a knife fight you're going to cut, so it's better to avoid the situation in the first place.

Man, I need to get back to work, I've been way too busy on INGO today.

 

[Dragon]

Clarification is key.

 

[the1kidd03]

Agreed, but again, my goal is to prevent the confrontation. I'm not going to go after a person unless he has actually attempted an attack, at which point range will probably not matter. If he wants keeps his distance because I also have a knife, that's fine with me - I'm not usually alone in hostile areas, and hopefully my yelling will draw the police or get someone to call them. If it gets close though, you'd better believe that my first goal is to do whatever I can to minimize the range of movement of that knife hand so I can strike at will with mine. I don't foresee myself having to fight too many military types or well-trained individuals, because they typically understand the fact that in a knife fight you're going to cut, so it's better to avoid the situation in the first place.

This is EXACTLY why I advocate that SA is at the HIGHEST level of priority for practice/training. To keep yourself out of situations which would require extremely risky tactics. My SA has kept me out of harms way more times than I can remember.

 

[iChokePeople]

What I learned about knife fighting ain't much, but I trained for long enough to know that running away is by far the best option. If your opponent is completely untrained, you can probably win and get away relatively unscathed, but although it takes lots and lots of training to become an expert with a knife, it doesn't take more than a few months before you can get good enough to almost guarantee you will land a cut. To me this makes engaging in a knife fight an incredible risky proposition. Even if I'm "better", I'm likely to get cut, and "winning" the fight but bleeding out before you can get to help is not much of a victory. I run.

+1. IIRC, you used to train with the same guy I train with now... right? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

Also, just to set the record straight, I think in the modern day USA, a true knife fight is about as common as a unicorn. What you generally have is a "stabbing". In some other cultures, blades are very common and a "knife fight", where each side actually knows that it's a knife fight, are more common.

 

[the1kidd03]

+1. IIRC, you used to train with the same guy I train with now... right? Or am I mixing you up with someone else?

Share?!? I'm always interested in knife tactics, hand to hand combatives.

 

[rockhopper46038]

Yep. Same guy. He tore me apart, but after a few months of it I could almost always land a wrist cut or something else that wouldn't keep me alive, but more than likely would be fatal to him as well, just a few minutes later than me.