Just took this course this weekend. Video

[HICKMAN]

This. In addition, back in the day, I was involved in some training while in the military, and we ALWAYS wore eye and ear protection.

yup

 

[VUPDblue]

lol, probably

 

[HICKMAN]

no disrespect but must of the 90's safety glasses was not widely used i can link hundreds of video and troops around weapons training not wearing them .....now in the last 10 years it standard to wear and use

lol yeah... but most of them were probably officers

 

[HICKMAN]

Ya this site really sucks. It's so awful we are averaging 1000 new members a month. Sorry you won't be here to see 20,000

hey, don't be a wise-ass or I'll report you to a mod!

I know people around here, ya know!

 

[the1kidd03]

lol yeah... but most of them were probably officers

 

[the1kidd03]

Paul, as always you make some excellent and well articulated points for the OP to consider.........that's far more educational than simply pointing out "no glasses" is dangerous

 

[Chaz]

I agree with Kid... to a point. (sorry this could get long )

I wasn't going to do any more posting on this thread except for maybe some fun, light hearted banter, which was all I really had hoped the thread was going to be. But as it stands, it turned into a "Training Video". One the likes of what people think RDT should have spent thousands of dollars on, practiced every move till it is dress uniform perfect, THEN film it, THEN cut it in the cutting room to make it more perfect than perfect. It's not. The bad thing is - and yeah, you could blame this on RDT for their lack of video prowess - the actual video itself.

I talked with the instructor last night and he said he made this video for the students to enjoy and see themselves a little bit in training. The videographer (amateur at BEST) did a few shots and then the instructor threw together a video from it. (To be honest, I don't really remember seeing the camera all that much so I don't "think" he had a lot to work with. But I am only guessing) It was never supposed to be used as a training instrument for Seal Team 6. I screwed up by posting it here and getting my instructor a bad rap. For that, I am very sorry. My apologies!! Like I said, I will not ever do it again. But, I am thankful for those that enjoyed it and said so. (especially the comment on "just wanting to be there" )

Now about what Paul said. I gotta tell ya, I think Paul, who ever he is (I've not had the pleasure), is an astute knowledgeable man.... Ain't no doubt!!! He seems to know his sh*t about shooting. But, he said two things that were contradictory, and it kinda involves me, so I thought I would speak to it. (please know a head of time, I'm not trying to be a penis )

while the students certainly enjoyed themselves, the actual value of the event was minimal and they [the students] left with an inflated sense of their abilities

I haven't typed all of this to bash anyone but, as has been noted, after 15 pages of discussion there are a number of folks who simply do not have a framework to understand what some of us see in this video.

I'm not here to read Paul his pedigree - by no means!!! He is obviously a learned guy and I truely do believe he knows his sh*t but, since he was not there, the video was not done to train anybody with, and he does not know what was done other than the two and a half minute video of a six and a half hour course, I'm not sure how he can really make those two statements except from assumptions???

I can tell you personanally and honestly that I got a LOT from the course!! And I will go out on a limb and say that I think others did as well.

Here's my point: have you ever taught school or ...anything? Have you ever been in school??? Have your students ever messed up?? Have you?? Were they or you ever corrected and learned from it?? Or did you chew up the teacher?? (That last one probably wasn't a good question nowadays as I also teach 8th Grade. Some parents.........!)

With all that said, would the said correction be worth the time on a fun video?? My thought is "no". The video was never intended to be critiqued as a "Training Video". It was supposed to be a fun thing for us students. (I screwed that up by sharing it here. They put it on youtube as an easy way to share it with all of us and we could turn friends on to it)

During the day, I made a couple mis-steps, mainly in dry fire mode, and was corrected for it and believe it or not, LEARNED from it!! I also learned other great tips, tricks and methods. Thank you Instructors!!! And also, thank you Instructors for not showing my goofs to the world!!!!

So personally, I learned several really important things and I'm not a Noob to this world. (52 yrs. old, prior military, shooting since I was about 7, own lots of guns, shoot IDPA, etc......)

I guess my point is this: the video does not acurately show the course nor was it supposed to and no one except those who were there know what or how it was taught and what they got from it. So please.............. please, please, please, don't make assumptions on whether it was a good course or not. With ALL due respect, you just don't know. The video is the flaw. Will some of you say "I would NEVER let a video out looking like that"!! Fine. The video is not professional. I get that. It was never intended to be "FOR training" and if you have problems with it please remember that it is a Fun Video for 2 1/2 minutes of a 6 1/2 hour course. My guess is that the Instructors probably learned as well that some people will critique them any chance they get, so they must be more diligent on what they show on the internet. BUT!!, I hope they don't quit taking video for the classes as I really enjoyed seeing it.

Now, if someone would like to take the video frame by frame and point out each and every flaw that was made by each and every person on it, I, PERSONALLY, would be very appreciative!! I think THAT would then be a good use of this "fun video" as a "Training Video". I'm serious here, that would be a cool thing!! I can't imagine it being critiqued anymore than it already has but, if someone missed something, I TOO would like to know what it is. Honestly. I can learn and anyone following this thread can learn, etc. Just don't attach the RDT name to it. That would be way wrong! And just spiteful. But it would kind of like be like the old Highlights Magazine where there was two pictures and you pic the "flaws". (you young bucks just disregard that. Before your time! )

So anyway, I just thought I should get that out as I feel personally responsible for causing this issue. I screwed up and my integrity makes me stick to something that I think is worthwhile. I will go to great lengths for the principle of a matter.

Thanx for hearing me out.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled banter.....
(now I GOT to get to work!!!!!!!!!!! )

 

[Glock21]

Ok....

Obvious point: Guns are dangerous.

Thank god! If they weren't, they'd serve no purpose.

And the word "safe" is a human invention and a condition which does not exist. Nothing is safe. No one is safe. Simply being alive on planet Earth has risk.

As thinking humans, what we do is manage risk. We do it with everything we encounter and engage in. There are degrees of risk, so we weigh the consequences, and we make choices.

As Instructors, our #1 job is risk management. Some may argue that it is to teach, but I would argue that it does us no good to to impart the most brilliant knowledge and techniques to a student, and then blind or kill them 15-minutes later. My first responsibility is to make sure everyone leaves the range with the same amount of holes in them that they showed up with.

That being said, I have NEVER - EVER - engaged in any drill, or taken any class, or worked with any instructor at any level, that I found myself saying "Gee, if only I hadn't had that stupid eye protection on, maybe I would have learned something."

So, yeah, when I see a "training" video, and the "instructors" don't seem to care about job #1, well, I think it's worth pointing out. Especially when ridiculous excuses are made for it.

So, I stand by my original comment: Shooting without eye protection on is STUPID.

And I say all of this as a person who is met with gasps of horror, wailing and gnashing of teeth whenever he approaches a new range and explains to them what he is going to have students engaged in. I understand the difference between training and masturbating with guns...I also understand that that there is no excuse for getting either in a students eye.

 

[esrice]

Chaz, there is no need to apologize for posting the video. Lots of videos get posted here in the T&T forum. Some are geared toward advertisement, others toward teaching a specific technique, and some to purposefully critique the content.

Its common on web forums for folks to dissect such videos. Its a form of discussion that is inevitable. Sometimes that discussion is positive and mostly "attaboys", and other times it can turn negative when the content is questionable.

I would encourage you to filter all the comments in this thread through your own perspective and experience. Ask yourself "do any of these comments hold merit?" If you can learn something from them, then do so. If you want to discuss them, discuss. If you read something doesn't jive with your own feelings, ignore it.

 

[fireblade]

chaz....don't worry about it instructors will always be safety safety safty.......i will thank you again for posting it......i guarantee any one of any salt can find some kind of mistakes in most training videos......what got this thing whacked was some of the safety stuff........ instructors they must and will provide the safest class they can give out ....it don't matter what you or me think when your in someone house its there rules ........if it a instructor class it his rules same as range operator......you will not win the eye protection argument with modern instructor .... and instructors have ego's too ...............as esrice said don't worry about it pick and choose what relates and you can use.....again would gladly shoot with any of you....

my personal opinion i will never agree with some of the cookie cutter tactics that are being trained by some .....just from my real life experience with it .. and there to much put on safety glasses for real world events............. example us military troops we train, train, train to have are fighting ability to muscle memory .......i can personally tell you i have seen young kids in a real fire fights get wounded and killed from there safety glasses slip off there face or falling off ......in a middle of a firefight they stop shooting or reacting because it been burned in to them they can't shoot that weapon with out them......it sounds stupid but i have seen it happen to much in combat with young rookie troops. We have to retrain them for real life theater environment TTP ... my suggestion take a lot of this classes that offered here and see what works best for you....and apply it....

　

　

　

　

 

[Chaz]

Duely noted Gents, duely noted. I just will not (or try not to) start a thread that will cause such controversy. Especially if it will cause ill effect to another person or business. I have my own opinions, as we all do, and will share them at times. I have zero problem with that. We all learn from others opinions and experiences. The "big headed" ones amongst us who choose not to learn from others experience, or even mistakes, are doomed to learn the hard way. Good luck to them.

I can also see dissection of something if it were, at least in my eyes, legitiment. But to turn this video thread into a national crises, even after things are explained seems a little over the top and that there might be some alterior motive, otherwise, why? The fact that the eye and ear pro was called into question was cool. I get that. And as I stated, I always wear them. You can see I was one always wearing them in the vid. And a few of the other comments on things they saw were good as well. I think there may be others who may have learned something from this whole deal. That's a good thing!!!

But, a question in my mind, that came up very recently because of a very recent post is: if you have already stated your opinion, emphatically, and yet you still feel the need to insert it yet again, emphatically, what is the reason? The need to have the last word? The need to be the Alpha on the board? The need to be right/the smart guy in everyone's eyes? The need to put someone else down? The need to raise something else up by putting something else down? There really isn't a reason except for some sort of personal satisfaction. ESPECIALLY since it's basically unanimous about safety and safety gear - Use IT! Sooooo, the horse is dead. Quit beating it. It just goes to alterior motive. What could it be?

All that said, if I am somewhere doing whatever in the world I'm doing and someone is doing something I think is not too bright, I may say something that he would be better off doing. If he chooses not to, good luck! If it were on my property however and I feared litigation..... yup, it ain't happenin.

 

[HICKMAN]

did I mention the lack of eye pro and muzzle control?

 

[Chaz]

did I mention the lack of eye pro and muzzle control?

Not in the last five minutes.
(your smile gave you away! )

 

[bwframe]

Duely noted Gents...

My advice to you sir is to train with other outfit(s) before you go back to RDT. Get a feeling for what others do. Then you may make more educated decisions on how to train and who to train with.

This is not directed against RTD. We all jump around with in our training. My first instructors emphasized this. I have tried to follow that direction.

 

[samrothstein01]

My advice to you sir is to train with other outfit(s) before you go back to RDT. Get a feeling for what others do. Then you may make more educated decisions on how to train and who to train with.

This is not directed against RTD. We all jump around with in our training. My first instructors emphasized this. I have tried to follow that direction.

This is good advice for anyone and everyone. (Man I can't believe I am saying that with regards to a bwframe quote.)

The first class I ever took, the instructors said get out there and train with anyone and everyone that you can, take the good, leave the bad, but learn something from it all (even if it is learning you don't ever want to train with them again). As long as you are training.

I now, somewhat sadly, base many first impressions on this. Anyone that won't recommend people train outside of their own auspices invokes immediate doubt in my book.

 

[the1kidd03]

the best way I've heard it is something like............think of tactics and training as a tool belt....you equip it with various tools (tactics) for various different jobs (situations) and FROM various different stores (instructors)....and you choose the best tool for the job when it's needed and some tools work better for certain jobs than others.....but it doesn't make the tool bad..it simply means you should choose one which will work better for your job and you can never have too many tools

 

[Chaz]

Agreed Kidd.
I also use an analogy of "going to war" when someone is fighting, say, cancer. "Your are going to war with this disease and in war you don't JUST use tanks or JUST use grenades, you use everything at your disposal". (I tend to gravitate towards alternative medicine for some things as well as "modern medicine".)

Oh, and Sam and BW, if you read my other posts you will see that I said a couple times that I was hoping the vid would HELP get more people to train. And one gentleman (sorry but if I go back and look for his name I'm afraid I'll wipe out this letter. My apologies to him!) also mentioned that even tho all the talk was about safety, he just thought it would be fun!! It was, as well as educational. THAT is, again, what I have been trying to promote from the very beginning!!!!!! You're preaching to the choir brothers. The only thing that holds me back from LOTS more is the same as pretty much everyone else - Funds. It's also why I really like IDPA. It's definitely not as intense as "training" per se but, it keeps you familiar with your weapon and muscle memory. And every time it is a different scenerio so you get even more versed. Plus, it's only $15.00 and about 90 rounds.

So whether you liked the aspects of safety in that video or not, I thought it definitely showed that it was also fun. It was totally and always intended to promote training. Period. I just hope it didn't sour anyone to it. I kinda doubt it but, ya never know.

P.S. Thanx for the "sir" in your post bw but, I was enlisted.

 

[the1kidd03]

Agreed Kidd.
I also use an analogy of "going to war" when someone is fighting, say, cancer. "Your are going to war with this disease and in war you don't JUST use tanks or JUST use grenades, you use everything at your disposal". (I tend to gravitate towards alternative medicine for some things as well as "modern medicine".)

Oh, and Sam and BW, if you read my other posts you will see that I said a couple times that I was hoping the vid would HELP get more people to train. And one gentleman (sorry but if I go back and look for his name I'm afraid I'll wipe out this letter. My apologies to him!) also mentioned that even tho all the talk was about safety, he just thought it would be fun!! It was, as well as educational. THAT is, again, what I have been trying to promote from the very beginning!!!!!! You're preaching to the choir brothers. The only thing that holds me back from LOTS more is the same as pretty much everyone else - Funds. It's also why I really like IDPA. It's definitely not as intense as "training" per se but, it keeps you familiar with your weapon and muscle memory. And every time it is a different scenerio so you get even more versed. Plus, it's only $15.00 and about 90 rounds.

So whether you liked the aspects of safety in that video or not, I thought it definitely showed that it was also fun. It was totally and always intended to promote training. Period. I just hope it didn't sour anyone to it. I kinda doubt it but, ya never know.

P.S. Thanx for the "sir" in your post bw but, I was enlisted.

agreed on multiple points.......I don't think learning how to protect yourself/family should have to cost you an arm and a leg....I understand some civilian trainers have additional overhead such as range rental fees and what not...but still for a class with 8 people or more and still feel it necessary to charge ridiculous prices is just further hurting the overall cause...be it to promote the 2nd amendment, responsible gun ownership, and the proper use for protecting themselves...I just don't agree with it personally.......and competitive shooting is an excellent source for practicing gun manipulation techniques, marksmanship OM, etc...and for cheap

for enlisted

 

[bwframe]

...The only thing that holds me back from LOTS more is the same as pretty much everyone else - Funds. It's also why I really like IDPA. It's definitely not as intense as "training" per se but, it keeps you familiar with your weapon...

Training is an investment. One certainly must prioritize to afford it. Putting education before hardware is a start. Shopping trainers is another direction along with shopping classes. There are certainly other considerations for cost saving also.

With all due respect, don't overwhelm yourself with "LOTS more," as your goal or reason for not investing in further training. Your next class should be your only consideration.

I've arranged my participation in the shooting sports to be as cost effective as possible. Reloading in bulk, careful hardware considerations and taking advantage of discounts for "working" matches keeps the costs minimal.

 

[jakemartens]

wonder why they removed the video?