Just can't like pocket carry....

[BehindBlueI's]

From my perspective as a civilian I disagree

Then I hope you're right.

There's zero downside to prepping for the use case in which you do have to and then never needing to do so, however.

 

[Bassat]

Pocket carry is my primary mode of going armed. I have a DeSantis of some flavor that accommodates my CM9 just fine. Not quite perfect for a S&W 442, but it works well... enough. The Keltec P32 goes naked. If I am not wearing a coat, gun goes in right front, ammo in left front. From time to time, clothing or environment will allow (make?) me to put the 442 in right rear pocket. I've got a whole collection of IWB, AIWB, OWB, SOB holsters that just don't work for me. I find that I am constantly reassuring myself that the gun in still in position. Dead give-away, right there. Drop it in a pocket and forget it. If I am wearing a coat, I zip/button/snap the bottom closure, and the gun goes in the right side pocket. Big advantage to the 442 in that position: pocket firing. Can to that with a bottom feeder.

 

[indyblue]

WOW, I would NEVER put a pistol with only a trigger safety in a pocket, that just seems nuts!

 

[NyleRN]

Then I hope you're right.

There's zero downside to prepping for the use case in which you do have to and then never needing to do so, however.

I'm not trying to argumentative. I just can't think of a situation where I need to hurry up and holster. Which has a higher likelihood? Needing to get the gun out quickly or putting the gun in the holster quickly?
And you're right, there's no downsides to prepping

 

[WebSnyper]

WOW, I would NEVER put a pistol with only a trigger safety in a pocket, that just seems nuts!

Agreed. I also want full trigger coverage at minimum on any gun honestly, in the pocket or otherwise.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm not trying to argumentative. I just can't think of a situation where I need to hurry up and holster. Which has a higher likelihood? Needing to get the gun out quickly or putting the gun in the holster quickly?
And you're right, there's no downsides to prepping

Which has a higher likelihood is self-evident, but doesn't equate to the other being a 'never' scenario.

Let's see: Aggressive panhandlers / borderline strong armed robbery. You begin your draw and all but one decide they have another place to be. One becomes more belligerent but is unarmed, not physically imposing, etc. You've now lost disparity of force and the forcible felony in progress is questionable at best. Legally gray area to shoot him, at best, but you still need the ability to quickly protect yourself from a more mundane physical assault. What do you do with the gun?

Aftermath of a serious encounter left you or loved one injured. Crowd of people present, not actively hostile or friendly, perhaps confused. You need both hands to render aid, summon help, push your way through a crowd, whatever. Alone, you could just ground the gun, do you risk it disappearing or being picked up by an unknown ally of the downed and used against you?

Personal one I experienced, granted on duty: Emotionally disturbed individual threatens you with a knife but at a distance too far to be an immediate threat. Throws knife then quickly charges you. Are you going to shoot a now unarmed person who's rapidly closing the distance between you? Fight over the gun? Or holster and deal with a more mundane assault?

Personal one I experienced off duty: Aggressive loose dog latches itself to your forearm. You shoot it after lesser means of stopping the attack fail. Presumptive crackhead owner, who you could pick up and throw like a javelin if needed, charges off the property to confront you. Is this a "gun in the hand" scenario or is it time to secure the gun before he gets there and then deal with him?

The aftermath of shooting someone who's unarmed and in questionable circumstances, even if you're ultimately found justified, vs the ability to quickly and safely holster and deal with an unarmed problem unarmed seems valuable even if low odds. The ability to deal with new threats that require less than lethal intervention without having a gun to occupy a hand seems a valuable consideration regardless of odds.

 

[ECS686]

I'm not trying to argumentative. I just can't think of a situation where I need to hurry up and holster. Which has a higher likelihood? Needing to get the gun out quickly or putting the gun in the holster quickly?
And you're right, there's no downsides to prepping

Respectfully BBI hit it. I frequent Seattle as my Son and Grandson have to be there so I see aggressive panhandlers and stung out drug users and very mentally unstable homeless folks.

That said the issue I see with a lot of self defense minded folks here is it’s all gun all the time. There are changing dynamics where it goes from a legal to borderline or completely no shoot and what are you gonna do then? What’s plan B?

So my question to anyone that thinks they won’t need to holster quick so you carry OC or some type of less lethal item and do you wear your seat belts every single time even though you haven’t needed it the last 300 trips?

 

[Bassat]

WOW, I would NEVER put a pistol with only a trigger safety in a pocket, that just seems nuts!

Assuming this was directed to me. First off, the Keltec P32 does not have a trigger safety. It relies on the same safety mechanism of a DA/DAO revolver: a long, heavy trigger pull. Secondly, a pocket holster big enough to stay stable in my pocket, will swallow the P32 whole, making it inaccessible with anything but thumb and index finger grip. As such, I am more likely to slip off the gun, or draw the holster with the gun. Thirdly, a pocket holster small enough to effectively contain a P32, will be way too small to stabilize the gun in my pocket. Not being where I expect it to be, can severly compromise the draw. I realize that carrying a gun w/o a holster is more dangerous than it needs to be. I also realize that not carrying a gun, when the P32 is all can carry, is potentially way more dangerous than holster-less pocket carry. My P32 in my pocket trumps your 8-3/8" Model 29 .44 Magnum (1911, G19, ...) you left in your house, if the doo-doo hits the fan.

 

[Route 45]

Or holster and deal with a more mundane assault?

I'd like to hear more about this "mundane assault." Is there a way to tell if he intends to knock me unconscious, or if he just wants to play slap fight? Pretty sure that deadly force is justified against someone if they try to disarm an officer. What am I to make of the nutjob who sees me obviously armed and still approaches to mundanely assault me?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd like to hear more about this "mundane assault." Is there a way to tell if he intends to knock me unconscious, or if he just wants to play slap fight? Pretty sure that deadly force is justified against someone if they try to disarm an officer. What am I to make of the nutjob who sees me obviously armed and still approaches to mundanely assault me?

I've already laid out examples. It may very well be a justified shoot. It may not be. Either way, having been through the process, I know I'd rather deal with the aftermath of knocking a guy on his ass then dealing with the aftermath of shooting him. If I had shot the unarmed guy much smaller than me and unarmed, with the only witness being his girlfriend, I may have came out just fine legally. Maybe his DNA is on the gun. Maybe that shows he tried to disarm me. Or maybe it doesn't. Either way, I get to deal with that uncertainty and aftermath of shooting him. *OR* I just holster up so he can't easily try to disarm me and deal with the mundane assault with less than lethal force, de-escalation, escaping, whatever.

If I had shot everyone I was legally justified in shooting, I'd have shot a hell of a lot more people. Make your own decisions.

 

[OutdoorDad]

It's definitely not for me, either. I can't stand having pockets full of "heavy" stuff. I like my ccw secured and not flopping around when I walk. That's why it's IWB at the 4 o'clock position for me.

When I'm feeling squirrely, I go to 4:30.

 

[three50seven]

When I'm feeling squirrely, I go to 4:30.

 

[OutdoorDad]

That is part of what complicates it for me also.
LF- keys
RF- knife clipped inside, any change I have.
LR- wallet
RR- bandanna and cell phone

so I can put it in my RF, but leave the knife and change home, when I do want to PC but I almost feel more Nekkid without a knife. So it is a fairly rare thing to do.

I know I'm gonna regret it...
Describe the bandana in your right rear pocket?

 

[WebSnyper]

I know I'm gonna regret it...
Describe the bandana in your right rear pocket?

 

[Expat]

I know I'm gonna regret it...
Describe the bandana in your right rear pocket?

Today it is a red one. I also have blue and black.

 

[Angrysauce]

Which has a higher likelihood is self-evident, but doesn't equate to the other being a 'never' scenario.

Let's see: Aggressive panhandlers / borderline strong armed robbery. You begin your draw and all but one decide they have another place to be. One becomes more belligerent but is unarmed, not physically imposing, etc. You've now lost disparity of force and the forcible felony in progress is questionable at best. Legally gray area to shoot him, at best, but you still need the ability to quickly protect yourself from a more mundane physical assault. What do you do with the gun?

You maintain positive possession of the firearm and remove yourself from the situation. Anyone who continues to advance on someone with a weapon is looking for a violent encounter and is to be presumed a deadly threat.
Reholster slowly, preferably out of your waistband when the threat is gone.

Aftermath of a serious encounter left you or loved one injured. Crowd of people present, not actively hostile or friendly, perhaps confused. You need both hands to render aid, summon help, push your way through a crowd, whatever. Alone, you could just ground the gun, do you risk it disappearing or being picked up by an unknown ally of the downed and used against you?

Render weapon safe, reholster quickly. You are now left with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber, with a zero percent chance of ND without rechambering a round. Dropping a mag and clearing the chamber is a 2 second task.

Personal one I experienced, granted on duty: Emotionally disturbed individual threatens you with a knife but at a distance too far to be an immediate threat. Throws knife then quickly charges you. Are you going to shoot a now unarmed person who's rapidly closing the distance between you? Fight over the gun? Or holster and deal with a more mundane assault?

I'm not a cop, yes, they get shot. Sucks, but policing and community care is not my job when a lunatic decides to commit complicated suicide while I'm trying to get chicky tendies.

Personal one I experienced off duty: Aggressive loose dog latches itself to your forearm. You shoot it after lesser means of stopping the attack fail. Presumptive crackhead owner, who you could pick up and throw like a javelin if needed, charges off the property to confront you. Is this a "gun in the hand" scenario or is it time to secure the gun before he gets there and then deal with him?

His property is a deadly threat that I just dispatched after it harmed me. My firearm gets put away slowly, unless he gets aggressive. I don't care how tiny a methhead they are. If my forearm was just torn off and I'm bleeding, there is still a disparity of force.

The aftermath of shooting someone who's unarmed and in questionable circumstances, even if you're ultimately found justified, vs the ability to quickly and safely holster and deal with an unarmed problem unarmed seems valuable even if low odds. The ability to deal with new threats that require less than lethal intervention without having a gun to occupy a hand seems a valuable consideration regardless of odds.

There are certainly times were dispossessing a firearm quickly is advantageous, but I can't think of one that would make risking shooting myself in the pelvic girdle worth it.
Anytime it needs to go away quickly, you can drop it or clear it.
The otherside of it is avoiding these situations. Gun is last resort, if it came out without being 100% certainty it is needed and justified, you're already in ****.
Cops in their duties engage in dynamic violence on a continuum. They have outside the waist band duty holsters for a reason, fast, secure, and conspicuous access.
Appendix carry prioritizes speed of presentation and concealment over, security and speed of reholstering.

 

[ECS686]

You maintain positive possession of the firearm and remove yourself from the situation. Anyone who continues to advance on someone with a weapon is looking for a violent encounter and is to be presumed a deadly threat.
Reholster slowly, preferably out of your waistband when the threat is gone.


Render weapon safe, reholster quickly. You are now left with a loaded magazine and an empty chamber, with a zero percent chance of ND without rechambering a round. Dropping a mag and clearing the chamber is a 2 second task.


I'm not a cop, yes, they get shot. Sucks, but policing and community care is not my job when a lunatic decides to commit complicated suicide while I'm trying to get chicky tendies.


His property is a deadly threat that I just dispatched after it harmed me. My firearm gets put away slowly, unless he gets aggressive. I don't care how tiny a methhead they are. If my forearm was just torn off and I'm bleeding, there is still a disparity of force.


There are certainly times were dispossessing a firearm quickly is advantageous, but I can't think of one that would make risking shooting myself in the pelvic girdle worth it.
Anytime it needs to go away quickly, you can drop it or clear it.
The otherside of it is avoiding these situations. Gun is last resort, if it came out without being 100% certainty it is needed and justified, you're already in ****.
Cops in their duties engage in dynamic violence on a continuum. They have outside the waist band duty holsters for a reason, fast, secure, and conspicuous access.
Appendix carry prioritizes speed of presentation and concealment over, security and speed of reholstering.

Respectfully we can split hairs but here goes. your first statement you have to show you used “Reasonable” force and a grand jury with 70 year old 50 year school teachers get to decide and just because you have “anyone” come up yelling doesn’t give you legal right to gun smoke them.

2nd statement about unloading ti reholstering that’s great and true UNLESS you don’t know it’s done! I get after a actual lethal force and rounds are fires LE are gonna be coming in hot

3rd see my first! Having the presence of your gun does not ward off evil some people know you are not legal and will push you to make a mistake. Happens all the time with progressive left folks

4th nobody can say with 100% certainty

Last one nobody is advocating being unsafe and even though many of us have LE experience that’s not what we are talking about. Yes cops have a duty to take into custody and as a civilian you do not. And you can believe whatever you want dynamics change all the time and you have to be able to switch gears

Like I mentioned in an earlier post a lot of folks are all gun all the time and throw up theory and conjecture on how it’s gonna happen. I’ve been in several use of force and most nothing happened like I thought it would. Both as LE and as a civilian with several negative contacts with vagrants in Seattle some coming up spitting at your direction I came close to using OC but was able to get space and distance good luck using lethal force in a place like Seattle. You are going to jail period and have to figure it out from there!

I’ve been mirandized so when I hear that “I’d rather be judged by 12” it’s utter BS and tells me that dude has zero clue how it works!

 

[bwframe]

If something ever happened, and I was pocket carrying. I’d be scared that I’d shoot myself in the leg, and concerned I couldn’t get a good grip on my gun. There just seem to be too many more variables to try to account for with pocket carry in my opinion. What if my keys or knife or whatever gets in my way. I’m a big fan of K.I.S.S.

I like the minimalist kydex holster on my hip or under my belly.

I shot a whole season of steel matches with my G43 before I would trust the gun to be my family wedding/funeral pocket pistol. Pocket carry makes for a slow draw and an even worse reholster. I guess that's the price you have to pay for not having to answer the silly after-hug "are you happy to see me?" questions?

The G43 is Glock reliable and shoots accurate, but I want my G19 on my hip for the trip home. Capacity and possibility of needing a 100% confident longer range shot is beyond important, it is required.

If you need your pistol it is very likely the bad guy(s) are carrying standard capacity pistols or even a rifle. Not a good place to find yourself shooting AT threats with just a dab of barely defense capable ammo.

I never did get it that so many of us carry the pocket pistol out for the quick trip out to the convenient store, gas station or the like. The place that is likely THE MOST threat rich environment they will ever enter?

 

[chadm]

I shot a whole season of steel matches with my G43 before I would trust the gun to be my family wedding/funeral pocket pistol. Pocket carry makes for a slow draw and an even worse reholster. I guess that's the price you have to pay for not having to answer the silly after-hug "are you happy to see me?" questions?

The G43 is Glock reliable and shoots accurate, but I want my G19 on my hip for the trip home. Capacity and possibility of needing a 100% confident longer range shot is beyond important, it is required.

If you need your pistol it is very likely the bad guy(s) are carrying standard capacity pistols or even a rifle. Not a good place to find yourself shooting AT threats with just a dab of barely defense capable ammo.

I never did get it that so many of us carry the pocket pistol out for the quick trip out to the convenient store, gas station or the like. The place that is likely THE MOST threat rich environment they will ever enter?

My Glock 43x has become one of my favorite go to guns for leaving the house, since it has the 15 round capacity (thank you Shield Arms), and the MOS allows for both a red dot and a light, and I just love the minimal weight and size of the gun.

Don’t get me wrong. I’ll never part with my Glock 19 or 17 or 34 or 26 or 45, but it is nice to have options.

I had the Glock 43 for a while and loved it but having a big hand, I prefer the 43x for a better grip on the gun.

 

[Trapper Jim]

Miles to go before I Sleep.

For many gun owners the inability to see why one might want to learn ALL aspects of gun and people handling results in a huge hiccup in our gun culture.

Training modules on Presentation, Reholstering, loading loose rounds by hand without a fancy appliance, shooting with wet hands and equipment, sequence and double taps, foot traps, prone, knees, weak hand supported by strong hand, one hand, weak hand, shooting through ports, visually inspecting rounds before loading, cover, shooting with no sights or blurred vision, and equipment evals, are just a few of insightful lessons that you will be glad you learned and perfected.

There are not many do overs in life. At a recent match I had an extractor break clean off on one of my 45’s. I finished the stage loading one at a time for about 5 rounds. It cost me dearly in score but I do not believe in restarts. Get a beep. Get a score.

Experience can spotlight the lack of insight.

Be ready, be good and be swift about it.

See you on the range

Trapper