John Roberts: Extortion is perfectly legal so long as it is packaged as a tax.

[IndyDave1776]

Insurance companies and organized crime have alot in common.

I never endorsed the integrity of either of the above. Human nature dictates that aside from specific reasons for not doing so (i.e., religious convictions) people will take advantage of others when given the opportunity. Assuming the worst about insurance providers, we are moving from being overcharged for what we are receiving to giving the government dictatorial powers over our lives so long as they are enforced through punitive taxation rather than fines, penalties, or imprisonment. I really don't think a false reprieve in health care is worth giving up our freedom. That ruling is very open-ended. Under it, we can be subjected to punitive taxation with no limit even addressed for any damned thing the government wants to impose on us. I don't know how to make this any plainer. The Supreme Court just ended our possession of rights--the only catch is that they cannot be ended outright, but we can be taxed on them to the point we cannot afford to exercise them. You have to look past the immediate circumstances into the implications. I am not surprised that the typical leftist would buy into this cheering for it as he goes along, but I would expect better of anyone found here.

 

[inlineman]

Can I borrow your crystal ball I would appreciate it.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Can I borrow your crystal ball I would appreciate it.

You don't need a crystal ball. Just study history. The pattern of government infringement is pretty obvious, as is the pattern of inventing programs to 'help' us which are 'guaranteed' to function in certain ways in perpetuity. You may recall that Social Security was to take only 1% (if I remember correctly) of your income on a voluntary basis, invest the money which would then be returned to a trust fund so that the payout was fully self-funded such that participants would receive their money back plus interest. Your SSN was never to be used for any other purpose. You may note that all three of these points have been nullified by subsequent legislation. You may also recall that the income tax was only to affect the handful of richest Americans with the understanding that it would be that way permanently. We see how that worked out. Forfeiture laws were designed to affect only drug dealers. Today it is a de facto prohibited activity to possess enough cash to have a decent vacation. Now tell me: Do you honestly believe that turned loose with a huge new power the government is NOT going to give us the shaft as has consistently been done on a regular basis for over a century?

 

[inlineman]

So in your opinion the shaft is coming from somewhere else.But atleast we are going to get a benefit for something that is out of our control.

 

[IndyDave1776]

So in your opinion the shaft is coming from somewhere else.But atleast we are going to get a benefit for something that is out of our control.

First, I don't see how you expect to benefit. The comparable government programs, Social Security and Medicare, are facing impending financial failure. The other countries which have tried similar schemes have already gone broke, are broke, or ration care to the point (in terms of both services available and wait times) that you are better off picking herbs out of the woods than relying on the health care available. Einstein remarked that insanity is repetitively doing the same thing while expecting different results. I would say that he was on to something.

Second, it defies my understanding that anyone could fail to understand the implications of the Supreme Court declaring it legal for the government to tax people into submission even in cases in which it cannot create laws to demand compliance. What are you going to do when this is applied to other facets of your life? Please don't tell me that you don't believe that the government will take advantage of a ruling that punitive taxation can be used to force people into doing or not doing things that are not otherwise legal for the government to regulate.

 

[netsecurity]

Insurance companies and organized crime have alot in common.

You admit that you would lose everything if you didn't have insurance, so obviously the insurance company stands to lose way more money than you have paid in if you have a procedure, yet you call them criminals for charging more than you want to pay? That's circular backwards logic.

The real problem is not the insurance companies, although they do need to be more ethical sometimes, and I'm okay with the government forcing them to do that. The real problem is the cost of healthcare keeps going up, because we keep getting better at saving lives, which is really sort of a good problem to have isn't it? Well, once the government gets control of healthcare they will provide the solution you desire for sure! Healthcare costs will stop rising, because the government will make them less efficient, and then they won't be saving lives very well, which is a win/win situation (for everyone but the patients, of course).

 

[inlineman]

Quit crying and run for office.Dont forget to take your crystal ball.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Quit crying and run for office.Dont forget to take your crystal ball.

Who is crying, other than you and your fear of 'losing everything you worked for'?

I made a very plain declaration that this ruling opens the door to knocking the foundation out from under liberty as we know it by allowing via taxation what cannot be done with direct legislation. It isn't my fault that you are one of those people who would trade liberty for the illusion of security.

 

[Carmelbythecorn]

I dont often pick up the newspaper and see a hospital or insurance company going bankrupt. I dont want or need sympathy just decent healthcare.

In the ACA bill, you'll have neither my ideological friend. Hopefully, your narcissistic 'I wanna keep mine - to hell with anyone else' attitude will serve you well. You seem to fit right in with the Obamacare crowd...

 

[Constructionist]

Just read this entire thread. The "facts and logic" vs "emotion and rhetoric" is stunning. It's both sad and hilarious.

 

[Fletch]

It is wrong to leave the health and welfare of the citizens in the hands of insurance companies that are only interested in PROFIT.GO OBAMA

 

[RockofStrength]

It is wrong to leave the health and welfare of the citizens in the hands of insurance companies that are only interested in PROFIT.GO OBAMA

...but their health and welfare is now even more in the hands of insurance companies. All they changed is that I know HAVE to buy health insurance from the same people you call criminals. Obama and co. don't care about your health or welfare: in fact they exempted themselves from almost all of the healthcare mandate. Why would they do that if the system they devised was a functional, useful, improved form of healthcare?

 

[Fargo]

We put our hopes in the hands and minds of those few in black robes. They are the over seer's of this land, it's Constitution and it's law's. As usual, We got "Hosed"

No, our hopes are in the hands of "the people" and those that "the people" elect. This law didn't spring up from nowhere, it was passed by our representatives. Anytime you are counting on unelected judges to save "we the people" from the consequences of our own choices, you are losing to begin with.

Who is crying, other than you and your fear of 'losing everything you worked for'?

I made a very plain declaration that this ruling opens the door to knocking the foundation out from under liberty as we know it by allowing via taxation what cannot be done with direct legislation. It isn't my fault that you are one of those people who would trade liberty for the illusion of security.

This opinion did NOT open that door. If you read the opinion, you will note that door has been open for decades if not longer.



Best,

Joe

 

[Fargo]

dupe

 

[indykid]

Can I just interrupt and give a small example of one of the reasons that health care costs are through the roof? (oh no, here I go again)

Doctors are not God. Repeat, doctors are human and make mistakes, honest human mistakes, but we hold them to the standard of God being perfect. Doctors usually do their best to help a person recover from what ever they want the doctor to fix, but sometimes we are unfixable, and because of it the doctor gets sued.

So the doctor must carry malpractice insurance, which for the doctors I am familiar with run about $200,000 a year. Now let that sink in for a minute, $200,000 a year for insurance to protect them from tort issues because they are human. ( I am not talking about real stupidity like leaving a sponge in a patient)

To pay that insurance they have to take in enough to pay it plus the income tax on that money, so now they have to take in $275,000 to just pay their malpractice insurance and taxes on that income. According to obama-messiah they are now part of the rich!

Somewhere in there the doctor has to pay for his staff of CPAs and lawyers to make sure the government is happy with his legal affairs. Then he/she has to pay for a staff of nurses to assist in running the business, and the hospital for the "renting" of the operating rooms and other facilities. How about the fact that a good doctor has to keep going to school to stay up on the latest practices? And the student loans that have to be paid off, that with medical school could reach nearly $500,000?

Obama-messiah once got in front of a bunch of doctors at the start of his attempt to pass an affordable care bill, and a doctor asked about tort reform. Obama-messiah could not understand why they boo'd him when he said tort reform isn't even on the table.

Let doctors be human, and accept that they aren't always able to cure you 100%. Reign in the cost of malpractice insurance and you will go a long way to allowing the doctor and the hospital to lower the rates.

And then there is the "evil drug industry" who also are held to the God standard. If they come out with a drug that cures ten million people, but one person has an allergic reaction to the drug, he/she will sue the drug company for not producing a "God drug" and the evil drug company usually will loose virtually all the money made by the drug that saved millions. So to cover the fact that scientists are not God and will not make a perfect drug, they research the heck out of the drug to make sure it is as good as it can be, which cost more than a few cents, and charge enough for the drug to cover the inevitable law suit from the one person in a million who had a reaction to that evil drug.

And that is only part of our medical problems in this country which no one seems to want to address.

And sorry that this doesn't address the OP but the thread seemed to veer off course, so I figured I might as well add a reason that health care expenses are more than just the insurance companies themselves.

 

[megalomaniac]

Things must get worse before they get better.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Can I just interrupt and give a small example of one of the reasons that health care costs are through the roof? (oh no, here I go again)

Doctors are not God. Repeat, doctors are human and make mistakes, honest human mistakes, but we hold them to the standard of God being perfect. Doctors usually do their best to help a person recover from what ever they want the doctor to fix, but sometimes we are unfixable, and because of it the doctor gets sued.

So the doctor must carry malpractice insurance, which for the doctors I am familiar with run about $200,000 a year. Now let that sink in for a minute, $200,000 a year for insurance to protect them from tort issues because they are human. ( I am not talking about real stupidity like leaving a sponge in a patient)

To pay that insurance they have to take in enough to pay it plus the income tax on that money, so now they have to take in $275,000 to just pay their malpractice insurance and taxes on that income. According to obama-messiah they are now part of the rich!

Somewhere in there the doctor has to pay for his staff of CPAs and lawyers to make sure the government is happy with his legal affairs. Then he/she has to pay for a staff of nurses to assist in running the business, and the hospital for the "renting" of the operating rooms and other facilities. How about the fact that a good doctor has to keep going to school to stay up on the latest practices? And the student loans that have to be paid off, that with medical school could reach nearly $500,000?

Obama-messiah once got in front of a bunch of doctors at the start of his attempt to pass an affordable care bill, and a doctor asked about tort reform. Obama-messiah could not understand why they boo'd him when he said tort reform isn't even on the table.

Let doctors be human, and accept that they aren't always able to cure you 100%. Reign in the cost of malpractice insurance and you will go a long way to allowing the doctor and the hospital to lower the rates.

And then there is the "evil drug industry" who also are held to the God standard. If they come out with a drug that cures ten million people, but one person has an allergic reaction to the drug, he/she will sue the drug company for not producing a "God drug" and the evil drug company usually will loose virtually all the money made by the drug that saved millions. So to cover the fact that scientists are not God and will not make a perfect drug, they research the heck out of the drug to make sure it is as good as it can be, which cost more than a few cents, and charge enough for the drug to cover the inevitable law suit from the one person in a million who had a reaction to that evil drug.

And that is only part of our medical problems in this country which no one seems to want to address.

And sorry that this doesn't address the OP but the thread seemed to veer off course, so I figured I might as well add a reason that health care expenses are more than just the insurance companies themselves.

Very well said! It may not be exactly following the original line of thought, but is extremely relevant so far as we have just had foisted upon us the worst possible 'solution' for the wrong problem. The solution is indeed in stopping the money hemorrhage between tort issues, compliance issues, regulatory restrictions, and the insurance industry artificially inflating prices and then getting sweetheart deals that are generally unavailable paying cash. And now, we have the invasion of the .gov writ large--just what we need!

The truth on the opposite side of the same coin is still truth! Thanks!

 

[88GT]

I ddont like the idea of losing what I have worked my whole life for because of an inflated hospital bill.The insurance companies are not going away like in your dream so in my opinion this is the best answer,and for once someone is trying to lookout for the poor. I thought id never see it but im sure glad I voted for it.

So don't go to the hospital. Nobody is saying you have to.

On a serious note: I've never received medical care from a hospital or doctor that didn't discount the "initial charges" when a patient had no insurance. If you want to be upset that the rampant and irrational use of INSURANCE to fund maintenance level medical care has inflated the cost, go ahead. You'd be justified. But just what the hell did you expect when you demand that a third party gets paid pennies on the dollar to fund your responsibilities.

Personally, I think we would all be a helluva lot better off if insurance for medical care were eliminated completely. I've worked hard for what I have and I don't like the idea of losing what I have worked my whole life for because some jackass who didn't says I should have to fund his irresponsible behavior/choices.

ACA will not improve medical care in this country. Just ask Canadians and Brits.

 

[IndyDave1776]

So don't go to the hospital. Nobody is saying you have to.

On a serious note: I've never received medical care from a hospital or doctor that didn't discount the "initial charges" when a patient had no insurance. If you want to be upset that the rampant and irrational use of INSURANCE to fund maintenance level medical care has inflated the cost, go ahead. You'd be justified. But just what the hell did you expect when you demand that a third party gets paid pennies on the dollar to fund your responsibilities.

Personally, I think we would all be a helluva lot better off if insurance for medical care were eliminated completely. I've worked hard for what I have and I don't like the idea of losing what I have worked my whole life for because some jackass who didn't says I should have to fund his irresponsible behavior/choices.

ACA will not improve medical care in this country. Just ask Canadians and Brits.

 

[cobber]

Let's adopt the Chinese system.

Pay as you go is the norm, although some folks have insurance.

While the government does mandate many things there, there does not seem to be any movement toward universal health care or welfare like we have in the States.

For all the talk about communism in China, we seem to be doing a good job of realizing it here.