Is a properly holstered handgun considered "safe"?

[BugI02]

Do you intend to put holes in your floor or walls? Do you dry fire?

No to #1. Yes to #2. Willing to drop the 'anything' in #2 and go with just 'anyone' as I believe the primary purpose of the four rules is to prevent people from being inadvertently hurt or killed.
Now cue the people asking 'what about dogs, cats, [insert subgroup of concern here]'

 

[BugI02]

I do with my own rifles, but at gun stores I generally use a light up chamber flag.

But, point taken. How about a lever action.

Was hoping you wouldn't go there.

 

[Woobie]

I guess #2 would more properly read "are willing to" instead of "intend to" for me. (of course, right after I said I'm good with them)

I am prepared for the gun to discharge when I dry fire. I aim at an interior wall with a stone wall behind it or I aim at a stack of books in front of my gun safe. I don't intend to destroy the books or the wall, but I am willing to destroy them. I would not dry fire at a window, for example.

But that is my point. The gun is being pointed at something you don't want to perforate. Your finger is on the trigger and you don't want a loud noise. You are violating those rules. But you have put in protocols to achieve safety. Yours are that you will point a properly cleared weapon at something you can afford to put holes in, and only then pull the trigger.

 

[Woobie]

No to #1. Yes to #2. Willing to drop the 'anything' in #2 and go with just 'anyone' as I believe the primary purpose of the four rules is to prevent people from being inadvertently hurt or killed.
Now cue the people asking 'what about dogs, cats, [insert subgroup of concern here]'

All I'm getting is that, strictly speaking, you are violating one of the rules when you dry fire. But I'll bet you don't do that without taking other measures first. So you operate under the big boy rules when the 4 kindergarten ones are not sufficient.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

But that is my point. The gun is being pointed at something you don't want to perforate. Your finger is on the trigger and you don't want a loud noise. You are violating those rules. But you have put in protocols to achieve safety. Yours are that you will point a properly cleared weapon at something you can afford to put holes in, and only then pull the trigger.

I understand, and that's why I agreed and changed it to "willing to". I'm willing to accept the risk I may screw up one day and need to patch some drywall, as I believe the advantages gained from dryfire are worth it. I am not willing to destroy a human, though, so I won't dry fire willy-nilly just because I cleared the gun first. Similarly when I pull the trigger in a sand barrel, I don't WANT to shoot, but I'm willing to put a bullet into the sand if I screwed the pooch, as that's what the sand barrel is for.

Willing to =/= intend to =/= want to. The first one can incorporate safe dry fire while eliminating unsafe dry fire. The second two eliminate dry fire all together unless done in a situation that live fire could be done in.

 

[Woobie]

I understand, and that's why I agreed and changed it to "willing to". I'm willing to accept the risk I may screw up one day and need to patch some drywall, as I believe the advantages gained from dryfire are worth it. I am not willing to destroy a human, though, so I won't dry fire willy-nilly just because I cleared the gun first. Similarly when I pull the trigger in a sand barrel, I don't WANT to shoot, but I'm willing to put a bullet into the sand if I screwed the pooch, as that's what the sand barrel is for.

Willing to =/= intend to =/= want to. The first one can incorporate safe dry fire while eliminating unsafe dry fire. The second two eliminate dry fire all together unless done in a situation that live fire could be done in.

Yeah, I gotcha. It was my turn for a reading fail. I was too distracted by the picattiny muzzle brake I was ordering. I will never again question a man who roasts his own nuts.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Have you never looked down a barrel to inspect it? If I were to wish to purchase a bolt action rifle and wanted to check the rifling and bore, how would you suggest I do this?

Back to this? Ok, one unloads the weapon, removes the bolt from the weapon and looks down the bore. It's not that hard.

If you do not say "all guns are always loaded" people will fight you to justify their own unsafe behavior. I see it every single day. I imagine you do as well.

 

[Woobie]

What about a lever gun or semi auto?

 

[LarryC]

The question is kind of like asking: When you are in the drivers seat of your car with the seat belt on ~ is it safe? Most people would / should answer yes! But as we all know automobile accidents kill far and away many more people than firearms.

NOTHING that can be involved in injuring someone can be considered 100% safe, including such items as a steak knife, bleach or a pointed stick. However usually there is a risk/reward assessment, the convenience or necessity of traveling in your car outweighs the risk. Using a steak Knife is not risky unless misused. A "properly holstered Handgun" is a risk we are willing to take as the ability to protect us and other innocent people from harm due to a BG, is weighed as the reward!

 

[CountryBoy19]

Is there some legitimate point you're trying to make, or are you just trying to be argumentative?

I think he's just trying to point out the duality and irony of the "exceptions" some people make while parroting that there are NO EXCEPTIONS to the rule.

Clearly excepting the rules is ok in some circumstances and is justifiable because of XYZ, but in other circumstances (where they don't agree there should be an exception) they loudly proclaim "There are NO exceptions to the rules... except for this, or that, and those don't count."

As somebody looking in upon this discussion the irony on a certain side of the fence is so dumbfounding that I find myself chuckling at the complete lack of common sense and critical thinking skills some people express... yes, I have my own personal opinion on this matter but I have no dog in the fight; I discussed this topic on INGO before many of you were members. There came a time that I realized that its completely pointless to argue with somebody that cannot apply critical thinking skills and provide logical reasons to support their argument. That is basic stuff I learned in high-school, I guess some people never learned it.

BTW, what's the "issue" involved in continually demeaning those who disagree with you instead of just addressing the arguments posed?

That's his MO; if he can't discuss his position respectfully from a position of logic and provide reasoning, he resorts to demeaning anybody that doesn't agree with him. Over my several years at INGO I've watched him erode into that type of person. He didn't use to be this way and I don't know him well enough to make a guess as to what happened to him... but he's certainly changed a great deal since I've been here.

 

[BugI02]

All I'm getting is that, strictly speaking, you are violating one of the rules when you dry fire. But I'll bet you don't do that without taking other measures first. So you operate under the big boy rules when the 4 kindergarten ones are not sufficient.

In all honesty I must concede the point. I do put further protocalls in place for working outside the rules (dryfire in basement work area, backstop is also books, no ammo in work area already, use spare mags which are ... well...spare - they aren't kept loaded). I still like the four as the basic frame of reference, though. Any situation specific protocalls should layer on top off them and not be made up out of whole cloth IMO. Apologies to you and ckcollins for misinterpreting where you were coming from.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

All I'm getting is that, strictly speaking, you are violating one of the rules when you dry fire.

No, you are not. You follow the Four Rules when you dry practice. You follow the Four Rules at the gun store, at the gun show, at the range, in your own basement, when cleaning guns, when working on guns, when on a boat with a goat, Sam I Am.

 

[tbhausen]

It is part of the self-verification process of gun owners. They look for reasons to play with their guns. Just look at the bathroom threads. Rather than simply leave it in their holsters, they want to play with the gun like a raccoon washing an apple.



It is. Leave it in the holster and stop touching it.



As long as the dude with the shoulder holster does not touch it. It is OK.

Same with the double-action revolver carried in the appendix position. It'd take an act of God to discharge it while holstered there.

 

[SSGSAD]

No, you are not. You follow the Four Rules when you dry practice. You follow the Four Rules at the gun store, at the gun show, at the range, in your own basement, when cleaning guns, when working on guns, when on a boat with a goat, Sam I Am.

Oh, come on now Kirk, ALL the TIME ?????

 

[Woobie]

In all honesty I must concede the point. I do put further protocalls in place for working outside the rules (dryfire in basement work area, backstop is also books, no ammo in work area already, use spare mags which are ... well...spare - they aren't kept loaded). I still like the four as the basic frame of reference, though. Any situation specific protocalls should layer on top off them and not be made up out of whole cloth IMO. Apologies to you and ckcollins for misinterpreting where you were coming from.

No apology necessary, brother. The 4 rules are the foundation of all safe gun handling. If we don't get those right, we won't be safe with firearms. That is unacceptable.

 

[Woobie]

No, you are not. You follow the Four Rules when you dry practice. You follow the Four Rules at the gun store, at the gun show, at the range, in your own basement, when cleaning guns, when working on guns, when on a boat with a goat, Sam I Am.

Sorry, whenever I am on a boat with a goat, I know no rules. I flag everything in sight with my finger on the trigger.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Oh, come on now Kirk, ALL the TIME ?????

Yes, all the time, even if you are in a gun store. EVEN if you have a beard. EVEN if you want to look cool.

Sorry, whenever I am on a boat with a goat, I know no rules. I flag everything in sight with my finger on the trigger

Well, you are a rebel, and that's why chicks dig you.

 

[Woobie]

Well, you are a rebel, and that's why chicks dig you.

If you listen closely, you might be able to hear my wife laughing from the other side of the state, lol. Merry Christmas!

 

[PLM2001]

Yes. All guns are safe if you keep your booger picker off the trigger.

 

[chezuki]

Yes. All guns are safe if you keep your booger picker off the trigger.

Except Kirk's 870... That thing is a piece of ****.