Is 40S&W that unwanted?

[churchmouse]

Just be sure the company is using a bullet made for that speed. Some are simply recycling their 9mm bullet, and it opens too fast or fragments if they push it to the .357 capability, so they download it to basically a 9mm +P with reduced capacity.



Personally, I wouldn't carry them for self defense. I haven't seen a .45 used yet, but the 9mm does not do well on bone. It hit, it did break the bone, but it was stopped and fragmented so dramatically that it did not penetrate further and just made a very shallow, but very messy, wound. A soft tissue hit may be nasty, I don't know, but when they are stopped by small bone I'm not carrying them.

Seemed to be a good idea such as a glaser for inside the house. I would hate to have a round get outside and do damage or worse yet, hurt.
They are so very lite. A full box seems empty compared to other .45 SD rounds.

 

[whiteoak]

It's kind of a shame, weather or not the 40 needed to exist or not, it is a good round. We seem to knock handgun rounds and pick on them too much. You rarely hear someone say "There are just to many rifle rounds" but with just a small fraction of handgun rounds compared to rifles, you still hear people complain that we really don't need the (fill in the blank) round. The 9mm or the .45 or the .44 cover it all... I think we have room for the .40 and would hate to see it go. I don't have a dog in this hunt as I don't own a .40 as a reloader it's a lot more expensive to add calibers then it is to add guns. However it's hard to make the agreement that the man with a .40 is not well armed.

 

[edporch]

Just be sure the company is using a bullet made for that speed. Some are simply recycling their 9mm bullet, and it opens too fast or fragments if they push it to the .357 capability, so they download it to basically a 9mm +P with reduced capacity.

This 357 Sig ammo is rated at 125grain 1475fps, and I've read reports of it chrono testing at 1500+fps.
Here's a video of a test of it, and it also kept it's weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=255&v=ughIFOrIP_w

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Seemed to be a good idea such as a glaser for inside the house. I would hate to have a round get outside and do damage or worse yet, hurt.
They are so very lite. A full box seems empty compared to other .45 SD rounds.

Well, let's say the other guy is shooting at you. Which is more dangerous? Increasing the odds of letting him keep firing, or increasing the odds that one of your bullets escapes and hits someone? That's the trade off your making.

Figure you're .45 is going to take out at least some dry wall, air gap, dry wall, big air gap, dry wall, insulation, whatever the exterior of your house is, and air gap before it ever gets "into the wild". Or it could go through a window, I guess, but figure walls. How fast is is still going? It's probably keyholing by now. Could it still hurt someone? I suppose, but the odds are reaaaaal minimal. Do you want to give up deeper penetration and a better chance of hitting vital organs to stop the other guy from firing at you and who ever is behind you for those slim odds? It is a trade off, but one I think is worth making.

 

[BrettJudy]

I don't know if they are going out. In fact, I know that the military is actually looking into replacing the M9 with a handgun that can be chambered in a.40

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This 357 Sig ammo is rated at 125grain 1475fps, and I've read reports of it chrono testing at 1500+fps.
Here's a video of a test of it, and it also kept it's weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=255&v=ughIFOrIP_w

I'd guess several boutique makers still use the cartridge at its capacity, but I'm just saying do your research before you buy as some of the larger manufacturers are not doing so.

 

[AngryRooster]

Just be sure the company is using a bullet made for that speed. Some are simply recycling their 9mm bullet, and it opens too fast or fragments if they push it to the .357 capability, so they download it to basically a 9mm +P with reduced capacity...

This 357 Sig ammo is rated at 125grain 1475fps, and I've read reports of it chrono testing at 1500+fps.
Here's a video of a test of it, and it also kept it's weight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=255&v=ughIFOrIP_w

Several years ago I had a Glock 33 (when they first came out). The factory Speer Gold Dot was what I carried in it. The bullet that's shown in that video is the true 357 Sig bullet, not the 9mm stuffed in a 357 case. The 357 projectile has a very shallow cavity, more like a cup point than a HP.

Ended up selling the gun to a friend. I couldn't afford to feed it and being in a small town it was hard to find places that new what a 357Sig was, let alone stock it. Other than the feeding costs it was a great gun, accurate and a very flat shooter. I actually liked the recoil of it better than the 40. It just seemed to rock in place in my hand. I didn't get that feeling with the 40. It felt like a machine that was slightly out of timing during recoil.

 

[tammyshcmidt]

Should I get a .40 slow and weak or should I get a 10?

Why?

(real question)

 

[Sonney]

I have a walter and a M&P in the 40 good pistols and also carry the Walter CCP single stack 8+1 this is one of but not only 9mm that I like. It has noticeable less recoil and easy to rack the slide. There has been a lot of good and bad reviews on the pistol I have never had a problem with it. Like they have said the ammo that is being produce has a very effective stopping power. I don't need a round that will go through a NY phone book I need no more than 6 inch penetration. The destructive power of the moden ammo is amazing when you see it go into ballistic gel. JMO

Sonney

 

[88E30M50]

I'm still happy with my G23 and G27. I tend to carry a .45 more though, but still like the .40 round. I'll admit that when I see tests that show the 9mm approaching the .40 in expansion and penetration, I start to wonder if my perspective is about to change on the .40, but so far it has not. Real world recoil between the .40 and the 9mm +P round is pretty much the same. I think that the recoil difference people feel is with plinking ammo. Even that is negligible. I could probably tell the difference with a timer, but it does not feel that much different to me. When comparing 9mm +P though, I cannot feel the difference.

Should I get a .40 slow and weak or should I get a 10?

Why?

(real question)

Welcome to INGO

It depends on what you want to do with it. Do you reload? If not, 10mm can get expensive. Expensive means fewer bullets for your training dollar. 10mm pistols are sometimes larger (thinking G20 vs. G22) and don't conceal as well. The G29 is a fantastic gun, but it's not near as small as the G27. 10mm 1911s seem to be more common than .40 1911s and if that's your platform of choice, that might make a difference. Also, note that a lot of commercial 10mm is only slightly more powerful than .40.

I don't mean to talk down the 10mm. I own 3 and love the things. But, I rarely carry 10mm. It's a great round, but is more an enthusiast round than the more common .40 S&W carry round.

 

[EvilKidsMeal]

Like they have said the ammo that is being produce has a very effective stopping power. I don't need a round that will go through a NY phone book I need no more than 6 inch penetration. The destructive power of the moden ammo is amazing when you see it go into ballistic gel. JMO

Sonney

The problem is that ballistic gel does not have bone or varying tissue densities. That extreme penetration or wound cavity in the gel could potentially be little more than a flesh wound under the right circumstances. There is a reason the FBI looks for a minimum of 12" into gel, any less than that and it may not make it through muscle in a person.

Vital organs are not 12" deep inside your body, much less, but the FBI has determined that in order to reach them 12" in gel is what is needed. Still in many cases it may not be enough. Gel is predictable; bone, muscle, and organs are not.

Sorry to say but if you purposely relegate yourself to something that doesn't meet those requirements, you may find yourself in a much worse situation, should you ever need to defend yourself.

BTW, stopping power is a myth.

This is what that 6" of penetration may get you.
https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/389552-bruised-25-a.html

 

[shibumiseeker]

Should I get a .40 slow and weak or should I get a 10?

Why?

(real question)

Do you want a smaller gun then get a .40. If you want a gun that can be extremely versatile get a 10mm. If that AND you reload, by all means get a 10. If the mythical "SHTF and I need to pick up bullets off the street" is your guide, or the "I only pick up a box of ammo from Xmart on the way to the range once a year," then get a 10mm and also the .40 and 9mm conversion barrels and you have a high degree of SHTF or lack of proper planning for ammo shortages versatility.

You can always download 10mm to .40S&W power but you can't go the other direction. For the experience loader 10mm offers maximum versatility in loading from light plinking all the way up to light .44mag power. The ONLY advantage .40 has over 10mm is that there are more guns offered in it, including some that are much smaller than the smallest 10mm.

And yes, I am a 10mm enthusiast 8-)

 

[IndyDave1776]

Should I get a .40 slow and weak or should I get a 10?

Why?

(real question)

I am going to recommend taking a step back. First stop should be the gun shop. Put fingerprints on guns. I would suggest opening up your search to include 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45ACP. The first round of elimination should be eliminating guns that don't feel good in your hand, and with the variations in size and configuration within these parameters, that should amount to quite a bit of eliminating up front. After you narrow it down somewhat, then, ideally, put in some target time with samples of guns you like. If your friends happen not to own what you would like to try, you just joined a large group of gun owners, so it is a pretty safe bet that someone will have one you can burn some powder with. At the end of the day, buy what 1., you like, 2., you can hit the target with, 3., what your budget will support for both initial purchase and supplying ammunition, and 4., what you can comfortably carry in the way you prefer to carry.

 

[phylodog]

I keep hearing that "modern" 9mm ammo makes the .40 S&W a lesser round. I do not get it, the new "high tech" bullet designs can only be made .355" diameter? What is stopping that new bullet technology from being made in another diameter, like say for example .401"? I also cannot figure out the "hard on pistols" answer. I have a Para Ordinance 16-40 that has spent most of it's life as a games gun. Lots of major power ammo blasted through it as fast as possible both in practice and in matches. Never any wear or breakage. If a pistol does not hold up in it's manufactured caliber, it would seem to be a quality or design issue with the pistol, not the round.

Some people talk about things they do not understand and some people are simply poor communicators. (I'm referring to the people you are hearing, not you)

The current 9mm offerings do not make the .40 any lesser a round than it has been. The .40 has always been a capable round, meeting the criteria to be considered a good performer in the terminal ballistics department. The current offerings however, bring the performance of the 9mm very close to, and in some cases superior to the .40. I've carried the .40 for near 20 years now and will never feel ill-prepared with it in my holster but the performance gap between the two that once existed has been dramatically reduced. It has been reduced to the point where it becomes reasonable to consider the benefits the 9mm has over the .40.

As far the .40 being harder on pistols, this is simply a matter of physics. It takes less energy to push a lighter bullet than to to push a heavier bullet at the same velocity. The pistol absorbs a substantial amount of the energy produced during this process. An all metal gun will deal with the forces involved better than the current polymer frames on the market. A metal gun designed to deal with the forces of the .40 should run forever. When you start trying to design a polymer gun to deal with these increased forces you begin to run in to a need for more robust parts, increasing the size and therefore decreasing the viability of the pistol. Manufacturers have to ride the line because no one wants a pistol to be larger in .40 than it is in 9mm.

I have shot the exact same pistols chambered in .40 and 9mm. I can barely feel any difference in recoil but there is no question that I am more accurate and slightly faster with the 9mm. I have taken video of my hands shooting both, synchronized them and slowed them down and they look almost identical but I consider myself pretty skilled in recoil management. Offer the same test to someone who has a sub par grip and I believe the results will be dramatically different, I intend to test this in the near future.

Its good to have choices and pistol/caliber selection is now and will always be a subjective topic. People can argue until they are blue in the face about why this caliber or that pistol is best but in the end no one wins the argument. I don't want to be shot with a 9mm, .40 or .45 regardless of which platform it was fired from. They'll all do the job and their ability to do the job relies too heavily on operator input to declare an absolute winner.

 

[lovemachine]

[video=youtube_share;Gsxdk1V8i-M]http://youtu.be/Gsxdk1V8i-M[/video]

 

[kaveman]

If I needed a reason to like the .40,.......there it is.

 

[kaveman]

RE: over-penetration. There's no such thing. As BBI points out upthread, there are probably bullets flying in both directions and the sooner that stops, the better.

Another thing 'they' don't tell you,.......

No matter who you are, when the flag goes up your misses are probably going to outnumber your hits. I know we don't like to think about that and we certainly don't talk about it, but it's a fact. If you're a NYC cop the misses will outnumber the hits probably ten to one. If you're ten times better than that you're still gonna miss half the time.

Over-penetration can only possibly matter a small percentage of the shots and only if innocent bystanders are BEHIND the perp. What happens if the perp puts himself BEHIND the innocent bystanders? That's a fairly common situation to face. Bad guys are smart,....they'll use innocents as a shield any time they can. That's where you need all the penetration you can get.

.44 Magnum,.........turning bystanders from cover into concealment!

 

[phylodog]

The issue with over penetration (I agree it isn't a huge issue) is that it takes energy with it which I would prefer be expended into the target.

 

[Birds Away]

I just got done purchasing a .40.

 

[churchmouse]

If I needed a reason to like the .40,.......there it is.

My exact thoughts.