INDOT launches Safe Zones pilot program to improve work zone safety

[DoggyDaddy]

Because that milling machine might come from southern Indiana to mill in northern Indiana. The paver might come from a hundred miles away to work in the area. Not every INDOT district has all the equipment to complete these tasks.
Another example: We need a ditch cleared along hwy 13. Full of cattails. There is only ONE machine for that in the state. They work it by area. Just not my area. Lol
And: who the hell ever said a .gov could EVER be efficient, even when they try?
It is only efficient when an outside contractor is doing the job and time is money.

I remember when they did something called "Hyper-Fix" to I-70, I think when they were building the new airport. There were incentives to completing the job early, and penalties for any delays. Do it like that. Betcha you'd see things getting done a lot quicker. I think @Leadeye 's quote applies.

 

[I Love Bourbon]

I remember when they did something called "Hyper-Fix" to I-70, I think when they were building the new airport. There were incentives to completing the job early, and penalties for any delays. Do it like that. Betcha you'd see things getting done a lot quicker. I think @Leadeye 's quote applies.

I wonder what type of construction work you do as obviously you have the solution to everything.
Just to be clear, every INDOT or LPA project has penalties for not completing on time. Sequencing a project takes much more work than saying "hurry up cause I say so". Utility relocation is usually a year behind schedule which slows everyone down, there are unknowns that show up when you break ground and a plethora of other issues that will delay a project. One of the most difficult is LPA's can loose their federal funding if a project isn't started by a specific date so they get pushed to start even if labor and materials are unavailable.
I understand that everyone driving through has a better idea of how to do the job, but every time I try to give them a shovel they say no.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

I wonder what type of construction work you do as obviously you have the solution to everything.
Just to be clear, every INDOT or LPA project has penalties for not completing on time. Sequencing a project takes much more work than saying "hurry up cause I say so". Utility relocation is usually a year behind schedule which slows everyone down, there are unknowns that show up when you break ground and a plethora of other issues that will delay a project. One of the most difficult is LPA's can loose their federal funding if a project isn't started by a specific date so they get pushed to start even if labor and materials are unavailable.
I understand that everyone driving through has a better idea of how to do the job, but every time I try to give them a shovel they say no.

I freely admit that I don't have experience in that type of work and it seems like you do, so let me ask you some questions. My questions in red. And please understand this is not an attack on the workers. I'm pissed at the people that are organizing the projects, not at the workers. Unless you're one of the ones organizing the projects...

1) Utility relocation is usually a year behind schedule which slows everyone down - So why start a project until that's completed? To do otherwise is putting the cart before the horse, is it not?

2) One of the most difficult is LPA's can loose their federal funding if a project isn't started by a specific date so they get pushed to start even if labor and materials are unavailable. - Then why promise a start date until labor and materials are available? Again, cart before the horse.

I may not be in the road construction business, but I do deal with deadlines and timelines and .gov regulations and restrictions in my job, and this is just poor planning.

 

[I Love Bourbon]

I freely admit that I don't have experience in that type of work and it seems like you do, so let me ask you some questions. My questions in red. And please understand this is not an attack on the workers. I'm pissed at the people that are organizing the projects, not at the workers. Unless you're one of the ones organizing the projects...

1) Utility relocation is usually a year behind schedule which slows everyone down - So why start a project until that's completed? To do otherwise is putting the cart before the horse, is it not?

It can be, there are many unknowns when a project starts, underlying conditions, Construction Changes (a legal term for oh **** this is bad) and the funding already mentioned.

2) One of the most difficult is LPA's can loose their federal funding if a project isn't started by a specific date so they get pushed to start even if labor and materials are unavailable. - Then why promise a start date until labor and materials are available? Again, cart before the horse.

A contractor bids a job, wins the bid and is given a start date, many things happen, labor force is unreliable at times and way to few skilled workers. Another project goes long and they don't have the staff to start the 2nd project but they're under contract and HAVE to start or fave financial penalties.

I may not be in the road construction business, but I do deal with deadlines and timelines and .gov regulations and restrictions in my job, and this is just poor planning.

I was able to get off my phone so it's easier to reply. For instance, I'm involved in a project that was given 2.5 years to complete, shortly after starting a major unknow problem was encountered, it delay the work and added much effort that was previously unknown, 5 months lost time and LOTS of dollars. Got through that issue and another seriously large unknown was found, delayed the work for about 7 months and added another 9 months of extra work. We got past all of that and yep, you guessed it, a monster-sized problem with a supplier shows its self and now we're looking at millions of dollars of expense. Here come the lawyers...
So now a 2.5 year project will turn into a 4 or 4.5 year project with huge amounts of extra money spent. I don't disagree with the frustration and the plethora of road work, trust me those of us who have to work on these jobe aren't necessarily happy with it either. But things happen, stuff goes wrong and people don't want to work a tough thankless job. many of the reasons you see signs still in place ofter a job appears done is due to legal issues, if there is a punch list that needs to be completed we can't legally be back on the roads without that signage or barriers in place. Federal funds include federal rules. I could go on and on but honestly talking about this doesn't make me happy either...

 

[foszoe]

I wonder what type of construction work you do as obviously you have the solution to everything.
Just to be clear, every INDOT or LPA project has penalties for not completing on time. Sequencing a project takes much more work than saying "hurry up cause I say so". Utility relocation is usually a year behind schedule which slows everyone down, there are unknowns that show up when you break ground and a plethora of other issues that will delay a project. One of the most difficult is LPA's can loose their federal funding if a project isn't started by a specific date so they get pushed to start even if labor and materials are unavailable.
I understand that everyone driving through has a better idea of how to do the job, but every time I try to give them a shovel they say no.

I was with you all the way up until the last sentence.


Then I was like, I will take the shovel if I get to be one of the six guys watching one dig.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

It can be, there are many unknowns when a project starts, underlying conditions, Construction Changes (a legal term for oh **** this is bad) and the funding already mentioned.

A contractor bids a job, wins the bid and is given a start date, many things happen, labor force is unreliable at times and way to few skilled workers. Another project goes long and they don't have the staff to start the 2nd project but they're under contract and HAVE to start or fave financial penalties.

Fair enough, and I appreciate the explanation. Those things are all contingencies and again, proper planning includes contingency planning. Does .gov inform of the start date before they take bids? If they don't, they should. It should be a 2-way street. I wouldn't bid a job that starts on x day if I knew I couldn't possibly meet that requirement because of other commitments. What's that saying? "Don't let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash?"

 

[I Love Bourbon]

Fair enough, and I appreciate the explanation. Those things are all contingencies and again, proper planning includes contingency planning. Does .gov inform of the start date before they take bids? If they don't, they should. It should be a 2-way street. I wouldn't bid a job that starts on x day if I knew I couldn't possibly meet that requirement because of other commitments. What's that saying? "Don't let your mouth write a check that your ass can't cash?"

That's great in a perfect world, but you don't always know when a job is going to be completed because of the aforementioned issues. Again, I don't have any idea what you do but the construction world isn't like an office job, you don't finish a project on Thursday and start the next one on Friday. Schedules overlap, you lose good people, equipment breaks or you can't get a crane when it was promised so you have to re-group. You have to keep your best workers busy, in todays age if you have to lay someone off because you have a lag another contractor is going to grab them and you don't get them back.

I know you guys like to post and complain about you being inconvenienced because it takes you an extra 20 minutes to get home. You think there's 4 guys standing watching 1 guy work, and that's the way it is, but that doesn't happen in the real world. I know men who have lost fingers, hands, limbs and a couple who have lost their lives because they're working long hours trying to complete a project and meet a schedule or an impatient driver can't be bothered to wait and cuts through the barricades and hits someone. I don't have to do the work anymore, I'm in management but I'll tell you for certain I've had bottles, trash and lord knows what else thrown at me or my crews while trying to work.
So my offer stands, any of you guys decide you want to work your butt off and be treated like crap and complained about no matter how hard you work, give me a call I'll put you in touch with someone who can make that happen!
But seriously, I'm done, you're all free to think what you like, but the truth is none of this works the way you think.
Ya'll have a great day and please drive safe.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

That's great in a perfect world, but you don't always know when a job is going to be completed because of the aforementioned issues. Again, I don't have any idea what you do but the construction world isn't like an office job, you don't finish a project on Thursday and start the next one on Friday. Schedules overlap, you lose good people, equipment breaks or you can't get a crane when it was promised so you have to re-group. You have to keep your best workers busy, in todays age if you have to lay someone off because you have a lag another contractor is going to grab them and you don't get them back.

I know you guys like to post and complain about you being inconvenienced because it takes you an extra 20 minutes to get home. You think there's 4 guys standing watching 1 guy work, and that's the way it is, but that doesn't happen in the real world. I know men who have lost fingers, hands, limbs and a couple who have lost their lives because they're working long hours trying to complete a project and meet a schedule or an impatient driver can't be bothered to wait and cuts through the barricades and hits someone. I don't have to do the work anymore, I'm in management but I'll tell you for certain I've had bottles, trash and lord knows what else thrown at me or my crews while trying to work.
So my offer stands, any of you guys decide you want to work your butt off and be treated like crap and complained about no matter how hard you work, give me a call I'll put you in touch with someone who can make that happen!
But seriously, I'm done, you're all free to think what you like, but the truth is none of this works the way you think.
Ya'll have a great day and please drive safe.

I apologize. My intent was not to attack the workers or the contractors, and my complaints have never been about them. I assure you I'm very respectful of their safety when I'm driving through a construction area. Everything you've said has been helpful in letting me (and probably others) understand what all is involved. So thank you for that! I guess my main beef is with the .gov people. They're the ones ultimately planning all this stuff. I won't apologize for criticizing them.

 

[I Love Bourbon]

I apologize. My intent was not to attack the workers or the contractors, and my complaints have never been about them. I assure you I'm very respectful of their safety when I'm driving through a construction area. Everything you've said has been helpful in letting me (and probably others) understand what all is involved. So thank you for that! I guess my main beef is with the .gov people. They're the ones ultimately planning all this stuff. I won't apologize for criticizing them.

No apologies necessary, it's getting harder to do this work. In the last 3 weeks I can show you 2 workers who were robbed at gunpoint on the job and another of shots fired on a job site. Just working up the ability to face another day is hard enough, it's harder when you have to worry about that stuff. I'm not angry at you and I'm not trying to be an ass, but it gets hard to take the criticisms when there's so much more happening that others don't see or understand.

 

[tim87tr]

That's great in a perfect world, but you don't always know when a job is going to be completed because of the aforementioned issues. Again, I don't have any idea what you do but the construction world isn't like an office job, you don't finish a project on Thursday and start the next one on Friday. Schedules overlap, you lose good people, equipment breaks or you can't get a crane when it was promised so you have to re-group. You have to keep your best workers busy, in todays age if you have to lay someone off because you have a lag another contractor is going to grab them and you don't get them back.

I know you guys like to post and complain about you being inconvenienced because it takes you an extra 20 minutes to get home. You think there's 4 guys standing watching 1 guy work, and that's the way it is, but that doesn't happen in the real world. I know men who have lost fingers, hands, limbs and a couple who have lost their lives because they're working long hours trying to complete a project and meet a schedule or an impatient driver can't be bothered to wait and cuts through the barricades and hits someone. I don't have to do the work anymore, I'm in management but I'll tell you for certain I've had bottles, trash and lord knows what else thrown at me or my crews while trying to work.
So my offer stands, any of you guys decide you want to work your butt off and be treated like crap and complained about no matter how hard you work, give me a call I'll put you in touch with someone who can make that happen!
But seriously, I'm done, you're all free to think what you like, but the truth is none of this works the way you think.
Ya'll have a great day and please drive safe.

I have a question about INDOTs constuction contracts. Is the Contractor that wins the bid required to submit a progress schedule, with major controlling construction items, that the State uses to charge working days against? This assumes the contract is based on a set amount of working days, which I am not aware of their contract language.

I understand if there is an unknown issue not listed in the plans, there would be extra time allowed and force account work paid for. I've driven though many construction zones with no work going on, in good weather, which leads me to believe that the contracts are not based on a set amount of working days. INDOTs traffic control standards seem pretty loose to me also.

 

[Ark]

Show me one government tax "pilot program" that didn't turn into a new, permanent, massively expanded tax.

 

[Michigan Slim]

Bourbon brought up utilities. We are six months waiting on a com company to move their lines over to a new pole so we can have the old pole removed. I should have had new sidewalks poured in April or May. Might not get it this year even.

 

[Cameramonkey]

It would probably help if INDOT didn’t allow miles and miles and miles of highway to be put under construction when the contractor will likely be working on relatively short stretches of that road at a time. There’s few things in life as frustrating when you’re poking along for those miles when much of that highway is untouched.

This is the answer.

A couple years ago they shut down virtually the entire stretch EB on I70 from indy to the border for the summer. But they were only working in mile segments or so.
F***ers.
And they are shutting down my ramp for 60 days, AGAIN. Because they just cant be bothered to work around it until they need that stretch and then shut it down for a week or two to do the actual ramp approach.

 

[I Love Bourbon]

I have a question about INDOTs constuction contracts. Is the Contractor that wins the bid required to submit a progress schedule, with major controlling construction items, that the State uses to charge working days against? This assumes the contract is based on a set amount of working days, which I am not aware of their contract language.

I understand if there is an unknown issue not listed in the plans, there would be extra time allowed and force account work paid for. I've driven though many construction zones with no work going on, in good weather, which leads me to believe that the contracts are not based on a set amount of working days. INDOTs traffic control standards seem pretty loose to me also.

Yes and no.
INDOT will confer with the design engineer but INDOT sets the schedule time frame such as Notice To Proceed/First day to start work on this date, then possibly an intermediate completion date/partial open to traffic if that's appropriate, then a final completion date.
A contract can be set up a variety of different ways, X number of working days, Calendar days, etc. Every contract I'm aware of must submit a schedule at the pre-construction meeting and are now required to update that every 3 weeks IIRC. Additional time can be given to the contractor for delays outside of their control, weather, utilities, extra work requested that wasn't part of the original plans, that list goes on and on.
If a contractor doesn't finish on time there are financial penalties for every day they are late, The dollar value of the job typically dictates what the penalty will be, as mentioned by another poster, on some projects such as large highway projects there are incentives and penalties for early/late opening to traffic. I am aware of some of those being in the tens of thousands per day.

Traffic control standards are pretty clear and well defined, the Feds set standards and most states and LPA's follow those, if they accept federal funds for roadwork they are required to.

I'm guessing you work or have worked in the business, most people have no idea what force account work is.

My responses are pretty generic, every project is and can be different for a variety of reasons but I think I covered most of it.

 

[tim87tr]

Yes and no.
INDOT will confer with the design engineer but INDOT sets the schedule time frame such as Notice To Proceed/First day to start work on this date, then possibly an intermediate completion date/partial open to traffic if that's appropriate, then a final completion date.
A contract can be set up a variety of different ways, X number of working days, Calendar days, etc. Every contract I'm aware of must submit a schedule at the pre-construction meeting and are now required to update that every 3 weeks IIRC. Additional time can be given to the contractor for delays outside of their control, weather, utilities, extra work requested that wasn't part of the original plans, that list goes on and on.
If a contractor doesn't finish on time there are financial penalties for every day they are late, The dollar value of the job typically dictates what the penalty will be, as mentioned by another poster, on some projects such as large highway projects there are incentives and penalties for early/late opening to traffic. I am aware of some of those being in the tens of thousands per day.

Traffic control standards are pretty clear and well defined, the Feds set standards and most states and LPA's follow those, if they accept federal funds for roadwork they are required to.

I'm guessing you work or have worked in the business, most people have no idea what force account work is.

My responses are pretty generic, every project is and can be different for a variety of reasons but I think I covered most of it.

Yes, been around the business. It was just my thought/outlook about safety is that there were too many working days allotted for the projects, if there's not a Contractor on site. The main issue I saw with traffic control is that it's been up too long or the work zone is too long in length. Both can create safety issues with the traveling public. Those are often modified with traffic control special provisions in the contract that take precedence over standard traffic control standards.

When I travel, I never know if the work zone is active. That's been my main concern. The traveling public has become increasingly dangerous. IMO mainly more passenger vehicles and not semis. Anymore it seems that I don't drive more than 15 minutes and there's an issue. So I agree that people should slow down, quit tailgating, etc.

On the enforcement side I'd rather see State Police allocated money to patrol work zones but that's often not how government budgets work. It may factor in that many States have lost a considerable amount of LEOs due to early retirement, mandates, poor pay and additional risks of the job. That's unfortunate.

I'd wager that the camera surveillance money from the article, which although not stated, is going to a private company. They state the the fines go to the general fund, but again I think a consultant is paid for the camera system. I'd think that not many people want to see more cameras, which will inherently have a lot of legal issues, as shown from past litigation. I'm not sure how they would keep track of when the job site is active since the article states the workers must be present at the time of the event for the violations to be valid.

Show me one government tax "pilot program" that didn't turn into a new, permanent, massively expanded tax.

Yes, that is the main issue and concern, along with additional surveillance. Of course the article states that's not what they will be used for yet these cameras are going up everywhere along highways.

 

[I Love Bourbon]

Yes, been around the business. It was just my thought/outlook about safety is that there were too many working days allotted for the projects, if there's not a Contractor on site. The main issue I saw with traffic control is that it's been up too long or the work zone is too long in length. Both can create safety issues with the traveling public. Those are often modified with traffic control special provisions in the contract that take precedence over standard traffic control standards.

When I travel, I never know if the work zone is active. That's been my main concern. The traveling public has become increasingly dangerous. IMO mainly more passenger vehicles and not semis. Anymore it seems that I don't drive more than 15 minutes and there's an issue. So I agree that people should slow down, quit tailgating, etc.

Part of the issue is that once the barricades, traffic control and signage go up they have to stay up. They cannot be put in place and removed and then placed again as that proves more confusing and dangerous for the traveling public. Truthfully, the entire work zone should be treated as an occupied work zone, that helps those workers go home to their families.

 

[foszoe]

Part of the issue is that once the barricades, traffic control and signage go up they have to stay up. They cannot be put in place and removed and then placed again as that proves more confusing and dangerous for the traveling public. Truthfully, the entire work zone should be treated as an occupied work zone, that helps those workers go home to their families.

I completely understand it, well at least I think i do.

But if they can invest in cameras and all sorts of other stuff to ticket speeding drivers, they should at least have accurate signage to identify active workzones.

A few years back I started seeing Speed limit 55/45 when flashing and I was like we are making progress. I wish, at least on interstates, that was mandatory. except 65/45 would be better. Maybe you have insights into that?

 

[BigRed]

I often wish Indiana had another Mitch Daniels.

 

[BigRed]

I completely understand it, well at least I think i do.

But if they can invest in cameras and all sorts of other stuff to ticket speeding drivers, they should at least have accurate signage to identify active workzones.

A few years back I started seeing Speed limit 55/45 when flashing and I was like we are making progress. I wish, at least on interstates, that was mandatory. except 65/45 would be better. Maybe you have insights into that?

As long as we are wishing in one hand, I wish folks would stop "parking their *** " in passing lanes.

I wish Midwest drivers had some idea of what a passing lane is.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

As long as we are wishing in one hand, I wish folks would stop "parking their *** " in passing lanes.

I wish Midwest drivers had some idea of what a passing lane is.

It’s not just here. This is a thing everywhere.