Incident involving store security

[CTS]

We covered this scenario in one of my law classes this past semester and the first reply from Denny347 nailed it, assuming my professor knows his stuff. While I don't believe in the sue happy culture out there, your friend really should talk to a lawyer and file for civil damages. They need to be penalized because, assuming your friend is being truthful, their LP staff crossed the line without sufficient evidence and will probably do it again. It's not going to be any major cash, but it will be enough to force them to review their policies and help to stop this from happening to someone else, and they'll probably settle pretty quickly on something like this (which will still have the same effect).

Imagine if your friend were armed...even if he didn't draw the store LP yokels would have found his firearm and taken it, and lord only knows if they would know enough to not put a hole in someone/something while doing it.

 

[brian.derby]

I too would say they had better darn well be informing me of who they are B4!!!! shoving me up to a wall..... can you say asp??? let me spell that for you..... O U C H ! ! ! ... broken leg?

 

[littletommy]

I too would say they had better darn well be informing me of who they are B4!!!! shoving me up to a wall..... can you say asp??? let me spell that for you..... O U C H ! ! ! ... broken leg?

What? Hell NO! Roundhouse kicks! Roundhouse kicks are where it's at! Right in the kisser, Paul Blart will be eating through a straw for the next month or so.

 

[brian.derby]

What? Hell NO! Roundhouse kicks! Roundhouse kicks are where it's at! Right in the kisser, Paul Blart will be eating through a straw for the next month or so.

too lazy for the roundhouse... and trust me, that asp, (collapsible baton,) will do wonders for someones attitude

 

[LPMan59]

did your buddy get pwned by a Fashion Mall "cop" in the Paradise Pen Company?

 

[daddymikey1975]

And all of this has to happen AFTER the person exits the store with whatever goods, right? ........... Now, if I leave without paying for the DP, then I'm in a bind, but until I leave...?

IMO, see the bold text below:

IC 35-33-6-2
Probable cause; detention; procedure; statements by juveniles
Sec. 2. (a) An owner or agent of a store who has probable cause to believe that a theft has occurred or is occurring on or about the store and who has probable cause to believe that a specific person has committed or is committing the theft:
(1) may:
(A) detain the person and request the person to identify himself or herself;
(B) verify the identification;
(C) determine whether the person has in the person's possession unpurchased merchandise taken from the store;

IMO, you haven't stolen it, until you leave the store with it. After all, just because you drink the Dr. Pepper in the store (which I do regularly LOL) doesn't mean you stole it.. you still have an opportunity to be a stand up guy and pay before you walk out the door. Now the minute you remove it from the store, you're committing theft.

IANAL

 

[Glock19]

In indiana if a non police officer cuffs you without it being a felony it is wrongful imprisonment/kidnapping/ etc.....SUE THEM! The store and the security company.....

 

[daddymikey1975]

In indiana if a non police officer cuffs you without it being a felony it is wrongful imprisonment/kidnapping/ etc.....SUE THEM! The store and the security company.....

If somene cuffs me without announcing themselves or identifying themselves first, it's a sure fire recipe for a color change on their eye and inexpensive tooth removal.

just sayin'

 

[BiscuitNaBasket]

I worked Loss Prevention at a corporate hardware store for a few months for a contracted security company. We carried cuffs and corporate policy was to cuff everyone regardless of wether they fought back or not. Most of the time I didn't, especially if the person was cooperating with the process and not resisting. Identification was the first step when apprehending someone. Grabbing somebody and getting rough was not permitted unless they fought back. That would be grounds for a lawsuit.

The point of last sale was past the last register. If you passed the last register with unpaid merchandise headed out of the store it was considered a reason to make a stop.

 

[IndyDave1776]

IMO, see the bold text below:




IMO, you haven't stolen it, until you leave the store with it. After all, just because you drink the Dr. Pepper in the store (which I do regularly LOL) doesn't mean you stole it.. you still have an opportunity to be a stand up guy and pay before you walk out the door. Now the minute you remove it from the store, you're committing theft.

IANAL

You reminded me that when I worked for the Department of Correction there was no rule violation for theft as it was determined that theft could not occur without leaving the premises, which is impossible outside the rare instance of an escape. Consequently, they developed the rule 'Unauthorized Relocation of Property'.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

And all of this has to happen AFTER the person exits the store with whatever goods, right? Otherwise, is it a theft? An example; say I go into Kroger and snag a Dr. Pepper from the little coolers by the checkout. Then, while I'm doing the bulk of my shopping, I drink the Dr. Pepper. Have I done anything illegal up to that point? Now, if I leave without paying for the DP, then I'm in a bind, but until I leave...?

Concealing merchandise is generally considered by the courts to be sufficient grounds to be detained. I don't know how fine the hair could be split, but I'd GUESS if you leave the soda container in the cart and pay for it as you exit, no issues. Drink it and chuck the container in the trash or shove it in a coat pocket, you are fair game to be stopped. However, as a matter of policy most stores will wait for you to pass all final points of sale. That just makes it more clear cut. You don't have to be outside, just past the registers.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Would theft of a pen constitute a felony?

Yes. There is no petty theft in Indiana, any theft at all can be a D felony. In practice, most first offenders or small dollar amounts get plead down to, or tried as, criminal conversion as a misdemeanor instead.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

In indiana if a non police officer cuffs you without it being a felony it is wrongful imprisonment/kidnapping/ etc.....SUE THEM! The store and the security company.....

That's simply wrong. If you were committing a misdemeanor that is a breach of the peace, say battery, a private citizen could handcuff you and they are on solid legal footing. Say you go to the casino and punch a guard, then the guards handcuff you. You didn't commit a felony, but they are well within their rights to handcuff you to stop you from fighting.

"(3) a misdemeanor involving a breach of peace is being committed in his presence and the arrest is necessary to prevent the continuance of the breach of peace."

Kidnapping in Indiana requires a demand for ransom, using the person as a hostage, or taking them in a vehicle hijack.

Any theft is a felony in Indiana, and as the IC code plainly states shopkeepers can detain for theft. That includes handcuffs. I know of several large chains that have decided they don't want the liability and now forbid their employees from using cuffs, but others still do.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

You reminded me that when I worked for the Department of Correction there was no rule violation for theft as it was determined that theft could not occur without leaving the premises, which is impossible outside the rare instance of an escape. Consequently, they developed the rule 'Unauthorized Relocation of Property'.

I think that's partly right. There can be no theft without the intent to leave the property with the item. In DoC, you can't leave, so there's no intent to leave. If you shove a DVD in your drawers at Wally World and start walking toward the door, you've taken substantial action toward the crime of theft and could be charged with attempted theft, even if stopped prior to exiting. They don't have to let you complete the crime to charge you with it (think of the bombers who push the plunger on a fake bomb and get arrested).

Most stores that prosecute just wait for you to pass the register since it makes it a lot more clear cut and "theft" is easier to prove and to try in court than "attempted theft". That's policy, though, and not law. Some stores don't prosecute and just try to get the merchandise returned and aren't concerned about it.

 

[mmills50]

Right, we have had shoplifter runs pend for 2 hours so they had to let them go before we were able to get there. We were too busy to get to them.

Our policy is 120 min unless police are on the way

 

[Indy317]

While probable cause need not be 100%, corporations would rather stuff walk out the door than face numerous public lawsuits where they were wrong over and over and over. I knew an officer who worked off-duty at Walmart years ago. His duty was solely deterrence and paperwork. He said back then, the LP officers would rotate different stores. Every so often one would come and get him and take him to the shoplifter. He had no idea they were working or anything. He said they were very good to get everything on video: The putting of the product in a bag, pocket, etc., paying for some items(sometimes not), etc.. Everything was 100%, at least for the cases he was called, which were actually very few. I have no idea if they ever got it wrong.

Anyways, here are some more relevant laws on the issue:

IC 35-33-6-4 Civil or criminal actions; exclusion of lawful detention; burden of proof
Sec. 4. A civil or criminal action against:
(1) an owner or agent of a store or motion picture exhibition facility; or
(2) a law enforcement officer;
may not be based on a detention that was lawful under section 2 or 2.5 of this chapter. However, the defendant has the burden of proof that the defendant acted with probable cause under section 2 or 2.5 of this chapter.

IC 35-33-6-5 Reliance on information from employee; probable cause
Sec. 5. An owner or agent of a store may act in the manner permitted by section 2 of this chapter on information received from any employee of the store, if that employee has probable cause to believe that a:
(1) theft has occurred or is occurring in or about the store; and
(2) specific person has committed or is committing the theft.

In this case, I would suggest speaking with an attorney. I read on another forum of this happening. The guy wasn't out to get rich, but felt the company needed to be punished for their making a scene and his embarrassment for doing nothing wrong. He called his lawyer, who got a settlement within days. PC should be strong in these cases. They need to specifically show on the video the point where they thought your friend concealed merchandise.

 

[dansgotguns]

A security officer in Indy told me that they dont carry handcuffs since they are not allowed to make arrests like the local PD is.

Anyone can make an arrest per say.

 

[Sylvain]

Anyone can make an arrest per say.

If you dont have actual "power of arrest" you better be really sure of what you're doing if you want to make a citizen arrest.

You could get legal troubles if you arrest someone wrongly, and you could get hurt of killed if you arrest someone without the proper training and backup.



Unless the person trying to arrest me is a LEO in full uniform im fighting back (potentially with deadly force) any person trying to handcuff me.

 

[drillsgt]

I'm glad nobody jumped me the other day at home depot. Put a packet of batteries in my cart along with a large cabinet thing for the garage. Paid for the cabinet and totally forgot about the batteries (they were in the part by the handle and it got folded up). Buzzer didn't sound when I left and saw them when I unloaded the cabinet at my car. Took the batteries back in and then the buzzer went off. Paid for them and left again.

 

[jon5212]

I'm just saying here, if I'm out with my family and newborn, and some jack head tries this at a store, he'll be extremely sorry and sore for attempting to do it.

Running up without ID'ing yourself and attempting to cuff me and you are a security guard is sure fire for face meeting pavement.