Incident at Wilbur Wright

[E5RANGER375]

I was behind the yellow line for the firing line at the time as well. Greg

your above statement is what makes you actions different compared to his. you were not on the shooting line. im not going to deffend or shove my training in your face. but your right loading mags doesnt mean your being unsafe but you shouldnt be doing it on the line. ammunition is still dangerous. you wouldnt let a child play with it would you? theres a reason for that. it can go off.

again, it doesnt matter to me what certain competitions allow their participants to get away with, but when im on someone elses range or running a class i dont want ANYONE touching even ammo while people are down range. why do you need to do it? isnt there plenty of time to do it after the field is clear?

 

[Eprobertson1]

well i was planning on teaching tactical pistol and carbine classes for FREE to interested INGO members, but finding the time to organize this and also find a range to use for free has been a problem.. but i have taught many LEO's and military members going overseas, and also civilians, just to give them more advanced training that what they would normaly have been taught. i just ask people to bring their own ammo and firearms, but i have provided them if they are in tough straits. i dont believe lack of monetary wealth should prevent people from ataining the skills to possibly save their own life or someone elses. im not against people who make money on firearms training (people need to make a living somehow) but as long as i have the time i will always gladly teach for free.

That's great!! If I hear of ayone that is need of some training and can supply a range, I will have them contact you.

Did I read somewhere on this forum that you are or were affiliated with a gun shop?

 

[singlesix]

Reverse the situation: how would you like it if someone was loading mags while you were down range. Safety rules exist to avoid once in a million event from happening.

I was at Ft. Hood, TX when a young solider (kid) got his head blown off by another solider (kid). They had issued loaded magazines to all soldiers that were shooting the Night Fire. You had the soldiers on the Fire Line and another group behind on the Ready Line. Kid on the Ready Line fell asleep. He was waken by the voice over the loud speaker saying: "Load your magazines"; "Point your weapon down range and commence firing." Kid forgot he was on the Ready Line and did exactly as commanded. Our Unit's SOP was only soldiers on the Fire Line get Mags. Running it this way took more: time between groups; more soldiers to operate the range; etc.
What was so unsafe about issuing loaded Magazines to Soldiers? Nobody would be stupid enough to load and shoot from the Ready Line.

 

[schafe]

Then the DNR guy comes up to me and tells me i am not to touch my handgun, magazines, or ammo while someone is down range. he is very arrogant and forceful about it like hes daring me to talk back.

When I come across an RO like that, I thank him, before I leave, for doing a good job keeping everyone safe! Done it before, the wife has done it. We never have a problem complying with range rules, even if we don't see the reasons for them. I like to call these situations "learning experiences"

 

[SKSnut]

If you would re-read the OP you will see that he was LOADING MAGS while the other person was downrange. I Don't know what safety school you went to but I have NEVER seen or even HEARD of a mag going off and shooting someone.

I personally have on many MANY occasions been loading up mags while the red cease fire light has been flashing at Kingsbury which is also a DNR range. I was behind the yellow line for the firing line at the time as well. I have also been to numerous IDPA, and Steel matches where the participants are reloading mags while they are waiting to shoot and others are shooting. I don't think the DNR guy was warranted in his chastisement of the OP in this case.

Greg

right, loading mags is not dangerous. thank you

 

[lawrra]

It's only for safety. The same rule is used at Roush, and the RO will make sure you follow the rules. Not everyone that attends these DNR ranges are as safety conscious as many of we INGO'ers. The rules are present, and enforced, to make the range as safe as possible.

 

[bigus_D]

I shoot at WW once in a while. I've never had any trouble with the ROs. I have seen several people handling their firearms in a manner I feel is unsafe. I've been swept several times. One time a group of unexperienced (first time probably) shooters with one guy showing them the ropes. When he told them to always keep their gun pointed down-range, this old (know it all) fart down the line echoed in with a few superlatives that they better f'n keep it pointed down-range. That was about three minutes before he had a misfire and then pointed his gun right at me while checking to see what was up.

Personally, I think everybody should have enough courtesy to stand well clear of the shooting benches and not handle any weapons during cease-fire. Loading mags is different, but only if it is well clear of the benches. I keep my eyes up when I'm at the range, trying to keep track of what everybody else is doing (ESPECIALLY during the cease fire when I'm down-range). But at some point I've got to hang my target, and I can't tell what the hell that dude next to the bench is doing then... did he finish loading his mag and now he's putting in the gun... who knows.

Just stand clear, there's no rush. Plenty of time.

 

[ddenny5]

I leave everything alone at the Wilbur Wright when someone is down range. However, they do have a couple of jerks there and the rules change depending on what day it is and who the the range officer. I had one range officer tell me to take all my firearms out of my range bag. They stay in my range bag til I shoot and go back in my range bag when I am done. I nicely told him no because I did not want to display my firearms for all to see. He said ok and told me to make sure they were unloaded. My suggestion is to go in the middle of the week when few people are there to shoot.

 

[Bisley Man]

DNR's delivery may have been poor. But my understanding is that when the line is cold, nobody touches anything on the bench... firearms, ammo, mags. Any of it.

Last time I was at Wilbur Wright, I gave the same direction to a couple of guys on the bench next to me (they were handling and loading up magazines while other guys were downrange changing targets). I was polite about it: "Hey fellas. You don't want to be handling anything on the bench until those guys get back up here behind the line." They said thanks, we weren't thinking. I said y'welcome.

That's my understanding of the WW rules. DO NOT TOUCH ANY GUNS, AMMO, MAGS WHILE SOMEONE(SON ,DAD, BROTHER,MOTHER,DAUGHTER,SISTER) IS DOWNRANGE! I've been shooting there for over15 years and I've seen men(mostly) NOT clear their guns,NOT lock back slide or action, or start to SHOOT while someone('s loved one)was where THE BULLETS GO! To the OP, don't take too hard, loading mags may not seem unsafe, but the rules are No HANDLING OF GUNS/ammo WHILE SOMEONE IS DOWNRANGE. Live and learn.

 

[E5RANGER375]

That's great!! If I hear of ayone that is need of some training and can supply a range, I will have them contact you.

Did I read somewhere on this forum that you are or were affiliated with a gun shop?

no im not affiliated with anyone accept my wife

 

[trnsplntfrmohio]

My experience with a cold range is just that. A cold range.

Action on all guns open and magazines set to the side.

 

[drillsgt]

your above statement is what makes you actions different compared to his. you were not on the shooting line. im not going to deffend or shove my training in your face. but your right loading mags doesnt mean your being unsafe but you shouldnt be doing it on the line. ammunition is still dangerous. you wouldnt let a child play with it would you? theres a reason for that. it can go off.

again, it doesnt matter to me what certain competitions allow their participants to get away with, but when im on someone elses range or running a class i dont want ANYONE touching even ammo while people are down range. why do you need to do it? isnt there plenty of time to do it after the field is clear?

Don't ever take a course by someone like John Farnam of DTI or others that run a hot range you'd have a heart attack.

 

[JetGirl]

I really enjoy going to Roush Lake in Huntington, In. It's a DNR run range. The RO's there are really pretty good about what they are doing. For me, it's the only place I take my kids shooting at, because of how safety conscious they are.

Um...last time I went shooting at Roush Lake, a cease fire was called.
I picked up some paper plates and my stapler and went down to the target to put up fresh ones. I'm standing there, one hand on the target stand, the other affixing the target ...and over the loud speaker I hear: "ALL SHOOTERS HAVE RETURNED. SHOOTERS GO FORWARD, LOAD AND FIRE. THE RANGE IS HOT."
That'll make you -->


Oh, and:

In fact at a lot of ranges you may not touch anything to do with the guns and stand behind a line as long as someone is down range.

This ^.

 

[DRob]

Shooting for Dummies

If you would re-read the OP you will see that he was LOADING MAGS while the other person was downrange. I Don't know what safety school you went to but I have NEVER seen or even HEARD of a mag going off and shooting someone. ................................
Greg

You gotta' remember we're talking about a public range where any goof can walk in there and start banging away. The next step after loading a magazine is to slap it into a gun and who knows if the guy loading the magazine is trained, untrained, or a total idiot who just bought the gun 30 minutes ago and has never been to the range in his life. There are several ways to get yourself in deep trouble with a gun. One is to assume that you are always 100% safe and you don't need no stinking rules. Another is to assume that ANYBODY else at the range is safe!

 

[WeAreNotAlone]

Maybe the guy's delivery wasn't as good as you would have liked or maybe he was having a bad day. Maybe you were having a bad day or don't take kindly to being told anything by anybody, I don't know. Just saying. However, when I'm down range, I don't want anybody doing anything with a gun, magazine, or ammo. Last time I was at Atterbury you had to put your gun down, open the action, step back from the firing line, and wait for the range master to check every active position before you could go down range. There's no such thing as too safe! I'll take "Barney Fife" over the guy who sits on his can and does nothing every time!

I agree with the above. Safety comes first.
The person downrange doesn't know (Is unable to see maybe) exactly "what" the person in question was doing (loading mags), they only see movement that would give the impression that shots might have been coming their way. I for one don't want playing around live ammo as I don't know what skill level they are at.

 

[Interloper]

I don't get it . I have seen the polls on this site and most of you would encourage carrying with one "in the pipe" and argue that it is completely safe. I am not saying that this is a good or bad practice, but it is certainly more risky than loading a magazine on a table top.

In this case, the OP was just loading mags. I have never heard a round going off while sitting in a magazine not inserted in the weapon. I certainly don't want dangerous behavior at the range, but what bad outcome could result from loading mags?

I am open to learning experiences, but is this really a learning experience???

 

[E5RANGER375]

Don't ever take a course by someone like John Farnam of DTI or others that run a hot range you'd have a heart attack.

i have done many live fire training exercises and been on a hot range, but your also talking about making sure the people in those classes or at that level of training (like in the Rangers) have all been through the basics and more advanced coarses to get to that level. at that level your not dealing with unexperienced or unsafe shooters anymore (hopefully).

but on a civilian range, i dont know who you are. all I see is someone possibly getting ready to engage while im down range. and that translates into a possible bad outcome for me.

 

[Bisley Man]

Don't ever take a course by someone like John Farnam of DTI or others that run a hot range you'd have a heart attack.

With all due respect,sir, Mr. Farnam's students just might have had SOME previous firearm training(and background check) BEFORE he and his experienced instructors take the students, let them load their firearms and run drills. Like DRob said, you don't know,at a public range, if someone bought their first gun 30 mins. ago.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I don't get it . I have seen the polls on this site and most of you would encourage carrying with one "in the pipe" and argue that it is completely safe. I am not saying that this is a good or bad practice, but it is certainly more risky than loading a magazine on a table top.

nope totaly different. when you are on the range you are there with the intention to shoot. when you carry you have the intention to NOT have to shoot, unless forced to. i always carry with one in the pipe, and when those guns are in my holsters there is NO WAY they will go off by themselves.

when you have a firearm exposed it is treated like a loaded weapon unless YOU PERSONALY check it and have eyes on it the WHOLE time after you cleared it. if you turn your back for a second then you need to re-clear that weapon.

personal carry and range operation is totaly different. plus if you carry without one in the pipe you might wanna re-consider.

 

[shibumiseeker]

I don't get it . I have seen the polls on this site and most of you would encourage carrying with one "in the pipe" and argue that it is completely safe. I am not saying that this is a good or bad practice, but it is certainly more risky than loading a magazine on a table top.

In this case, the OP was just loading mags. I have never heard a round going off while sitting in a magazine not inserted in the weapon. I certainly don't want dangerous behavior at the range, but what bad outcome could result from loading mags?

I am open to learning experiences, but is this really a learning experience???

Yes. As it was a PUBLIC range and not a private class or private range where each participant has a known level of skill and experience, maximum safety is called for.

It's not about whether loading the magazine itself is risky, I'm pretty sure we can get near 100% agreement (except some wag who will invariably make a joke) that it's not. But a loaded mag is about one second away from being slapped into a gun with the action open and the slide closed.

I have been a RO at a couple of public and one semi-public range and I've helped teach gun safety courses. I have seen a LOT of stupidity from people of varying experience levels from complete novice to fairly experienced shooter. I've been swept more times than I care to think of by someone who had their finger on the trigger at public ranges. The first time I catch someone being unsafe, I gave them a friendly talking to. The second time I booted them from the range.

The RO can't know that you are a super secret agent squirrel with lightning fast reflexes who would never do anything unsafe, so at a public range the SOP is usually to have the guns grounded, which includes magazines and ammo. What happens at a private range or during a class or competition is a completely different ball of cheese.