IMPD officer shot, suspect still shooting.

[phylodog]

How many shots did the Bearcat block? Any way we can quantify the value of the Bearcat? Can we see the video of the Bearcat in action?

Would you bother shooting at an armored car in an attempt to injure those inside? You wouldn't be able to see them, you'd know chances are nothing you possess is going to penetrate. Would you shoot at someone sitting inside of a car in an attempt to injure them? Changes the dynamic a little bit, your odds of success increase as does the possibility you can see what you're wanting to shoot. Can't quantify things which are prevented, you know that.

I've already mentioned that armored vehicles have been used by the police in this city to protect people from rifle fire. Does it happen every day? Of course not. How many people should the police allow to be murdered while they wait for someone with a rifle to run out of ammunition? Or is it that their lives are expendable? They don't deserve protection? I thought you were on the side of LE when it comes to self defense. You can own an armored car and drive it all you want, why is that different for LE? We're not talking about a tank here. It's an F550 truck with armor plating.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

How many shots did the Bearcat block? Any way we can quantify the value of the Bearcat? Can we see the video of the Bearcat in action?

Come out with your camera and start filming next time officers are taking fire. It's a lot easier to put other people at risk, though, isn't it? It's taken hits in the past, so I'd say it's blocked "some". Generally the suspects understand the futility of shooting an armored vehicle, though. That's why it works so well as mobile cover. How do you quantify the value of the woman who was pinned down by gunfire?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/us/colorado-planned-parenthood-shooting.html?_r=0

The encounter could be heard in transfixing detail on the police scanner, with the authorities describing how they had driven a BearCat armored vehicle into the Planned Parenthood building, smashing through two sets of doors into the lobby and rescuing some of those inside.“We’re exchanging gunfire,” one officer said on the radio. “We are trying to keep him pinned down.”
“Put gunfire through the walls,” came a reply. “Whatever, we got to stop this guy.”

How do you quantify the value of the Bearcat in that incident? Alternately, would you like to argue that could never happen here?

I've already mentioned that armored vehicles have been used by the police in this city to protect people from rifle fire. Does it happen every day? Of course not. How many people should the police allow to be murdered while they wait for someone with a rifle to run out of ammunition? Or is it that their lives are expendable? They don't deserve protection? I thought you were on the side of LE when it comes to self defense. You can own an armored car and drive it all you want, why is that different for LE? We're not talking about a tank here. It's an F550 truck with armor plating.

Well, yeah, but how do you quantify that? I wonder if we've done the research on the ladder trucks for IFD. How many times do we really need to rescue someone from a fire and they are too far up for a regular ol' ladder? Probably cheaper to let them burn then to buy those shiny red toys for fire fighters.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You can own an armored car and drive it all you want, why is that different for LE?

Cost to taxpayers.

Changes the dynamic a little bit, your odds of success increase as does the possibility you can see what you're wanting to shoot. Can't quantify things which are prevented, you know that.

True enough, but it quickly descends into the absurd into the "what if" game.

How do you quantify the value of the woman who was pinned down by gunfire?

Just like any other person--age, occupation, pre-existing diseases, etc. The City of Indianapolis does it all the time. It's not magic.

Alternately, would you like to argue that could never happen here?

It has happened before?

Look, I know everyone wants to be cool and have their toys so they can put it on calendars and talk about theirs at seminars and stuff, but these are the questions that should be asked if we are to allow LE to keep stuff like this.

Maybe it is needed in Marion County according to risk formulation; maybe not. But the questions should be asked.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Maybe it is needed in Marion County according to risk formulation; maybe not. But the questions should be asked.

There's a way to ask these question without being dismissive and condescending about it. That said, you asked, we answered. There are times it has blocked rounds coming at officers. There are times it has been used to extricate civilians who were injured or pinned down. It's been used for psychological pressure in negotiations and as mobile cover for gas launchers (what ended this particular standoff, as I understand it) etc. It allows for much closer contact and observation with armed suspects. That's been done right here. Branch out to similar sized cities and it's been used to extricate injured officers, it's been used to breach active shooter scenes, etc. Of course the same can happen here, we are not special and immune to active shooters somehow.

 

[actaeon277]

If I *****ed about the way you do your job and the tools you use to do it, what would you call me?

Boss man.

Never thought of that!

Actually I'm pretty lucky. In 24 year, I think I'm on my 21st boss. So he really doesn't know what I do, or how I do it.
I get lined up on a job by my boss, maybe once a month. Any more than that, and the production bosses come down on him telling him that he may be my boss, but they determine the jobs that have to be done.
As long as the work gets done, and I can justify my time and work.
And if I can refrain from causing another break-out of steel .

 

[actaeon277]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/break-room/382798-tippecanoe-co-s-mrap.html

 

[phylodog]

Cost to taxpayers.



True enough, but it quickly descends into the absurd into the "what if" game.



Just like any other person--age, occupation, pre-existing diseases, etc. The City of Indianapolis does it all the time. It's not magic.



It has happened before?

Look, I know everyone wants to be cool and have their toys so they can put it on calendars and talk about theirs at seminars and stuff, but these are the questions that should be asked if we are to allow LE to keep stuff like this.

Maybe it is needed in Marion County according to risk formulation; maybe not. But the questions should be asked.

It's not a what if game, it was a question posed to you. The obvious answer justifies the existence of armored protection for LE in utopias like Indianapolis.

It has happened before. I already mentioned the night Dep Jason Baker was killed. Three helicopters and and two armed vehicles took fire from an SKS. I didn't have the benefit of being in one of them, would have preferred to be.

Don't think you'll see ours on any calendars and anyone going to seminars is paying for it themselves.

I'd prefer you look into it yourself and hold your accusations for threads pertaining to jurisdictions which perhaps don't have a legitimate need. It's a truck with a lot of steel welded to it, it's not a tank. It's pretty offensive to those who have had someone shooting at them and little in the way of sufficient protection to suggest its a waste of money and was only purchased as a toy.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

There's a way to ask these question without being dismissive and condescending about it.

Now, now, let's not project. Stating my opinion that such vehicles are a waste of money and accomplish nothing but empire building is not being dismissive. It is simply looking at the numbers.

I know, I know, I am calling law enforcement on a toy and everyone gets defensive. I got it. But there is nothing wrong with the taxpayers asking the police to justify such an expense.

It's not a what if game, it was a question posed to you.

Did not get the question then? Could you re-state it?

I already mentioned the night Dep Jason Baker was killed. Three helicopters and and two armed vehicles took fire from an SKS.

How? I thought the last shots fired were at Jason Baker?

Don't think you'll see ours on any calendars

We see them on calendars, baseball cards, flyers, recruitment videos, etc.

I'd prefer you look into it yourself and hold your accusations for threads pertaining to jurisdictions which perhaps don't have a legitimate need.

I don't think Marion County has a legitimate need and this is nothing more than keeping up with the Joneses.

It's pretty offensive to those who have had someone shooting at them and little in the way of sufficient protection to suggest its a waste of money and was only purchased as a toy.

Questioning our government is not offensive in any way. I am merely asking questions. More people should do it.

A healthy debate on public spending is what every community needs.

 

[phylodog]

How? I thought the last shots fired were at Jason Baker?

You thought wrong. The last shot fired that night went through Allen Dumperth's head. Between Jason being murdered and Dumperth being killed there were many shots fired, many of those at close friends of mine. I was fortunate not to be in the line of fire but didn't enjoy listening to the voices of my friends who were being fired at by an SKS when they had insufficient cover for protection and nothing but pistols and shotguns for defense.

We heard people squealing when we brought a patrol rifle on board after that night. I find similar value to your opinion on this issue that I did to theirs on that one.

 

[phylodog]

Questioning our government is not offensive in any way. I am merely asking questions. More people should do it.

A healthy debate on public spending is what every community needs.

You are not merely asking questions. You are devaluing the lives of police officers who rely on the Bearcats for protection and accusing them of having petty reasons for wanting said protection. You are not looking for a healthy debate, you're *****ing about money spent to protect those you apparently don't feel deserve it.

 

[phylodog]

I don't think Marion County has a legitimate need and this is nothing more than keeping up with the Joneses.

I guess I'm to the point to say, who gives a **** what you think? You're not willing to put your ass on the line so why does your opinion matter? You're willing to sit around in comfortable shoes and a heated courtroom and defend those who create the reasons these things are necessary. I guess more dead cops = more money to be made on defending cop killers. Now there's a motivation for ya.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I guess I'm to the point to say, who gives a **** what you think?

Everyone here apparently. More to the point, I get to have an opinion.

You don't have to like it. That's fine, but no one has disputed my questioning of the need for these things.

You're not willing to put your ass on the line so why does your opinion matter?

No, but more importantly I'm a taxpayer, not a civil servant. I have no problem with people being LEOs, but as a citizen I get to have the final say over my money and the gear the police get to have.

I guess more dead cops = more money to be made on defending cop killers.

What cops, anwhere in Indianapolis, have died but for a lack of a Bearcat or MRAP? Please show your work.

 

[phylodog]

Everyone here apparently. More to the point, I get to have an opinion.

You don't have to like it. That's fine, but no one has disputed my questioning of the need for these things.



No, but more importantly I'm a taxpayer, not a civil servant. I have no problem with people being LEOs, but as a citizen I get to have the final say over my money and the gear the police get to have.



What cops, anwhere in Indianapolis, have died but for a lack of a Bearcat or MRAP? Please show your work.

I have disputed it, you just don't want to accept it. You were flat wrong about the night Jason Baker was killed but that's inconvenient so we're going to ignore it.

You're a taxpayer and a defense attorney. Like I said, more dead cops = more money for you provided your clients live to go to trial. Armored vehicle tilt the odds a bit in favor of the police so you're against it. It reduces your income potential, I get it.

What cops haven't died because we had a Bearcat or the vehicle we had before those? Pleas show your work.

 

[phylodog]

I think I'll be done with this. It's a shame as I'd actually built up some respect for you after we got off to a rocky first year or so, I'll move on before the last shred of that respect is gone. You've lost anyway, the Bearcats are here and they aren't going anywhere.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

You were flat wrong about the night Jason Baker was killed but that's inconvenient so we're going to ignore it.

Not wrong. I am asking a question, not stating anything. So, the last shots that the murderer fired were not at Jason Baker? The accounts that I have read are incorrect then.

But what relevance does it hold? Are you saying that Jason Baker should have been patrolling in a Bearcat?

You're a taxpayer

Yes, and as such I get to ask questions. Today I am questioning the value of armored vehicles for the police.

a defense attorney

Sure, and my opinion counts the same as everyone else, not less, not more, but I will ask questions. If armored police vehicles are a good idea, then certainly they can withstand the mildest form of cross-examination in history, an internet forum.

What cops haven't died because we had a Bearcat or the vehicle we had before those? Pleas show your work.

The Bear Patrol defense?

No, the government has to to show the risk formulation, not the taxpayer.

t's a shame as I'd actually built up some respect for you after we got off to a rocky first year or so, I'll move on before the last shred of that respect is gone.

I don't know what is wrong. There is no malice in questioning questionable government policy decisions.

I don't want anyone hurt or jailed. I just want to know why the John Q. Public's money gets spent on things such as this.

You've lost anyway, the Bearcats are here and they aren't going anywhere.

Maybe in Marion County but asking questions can inform others that live elsewhere.

 

[phylodog]

I don't know what is wrong. There is no malice in questioning questionable government policy decisions.

I have no issue explaining the need when questioned. When my answers are ignored, accusations are tossed out and someone chooses to get condescending I'll initially begin to return the favor before deciding it isn't worth it.

You aren't interested in information. Your mind is made up.

 

[IndyDave1776]

OK, let's consider this situation a bit...

Even with cumulative life experience which encourages distrust of police, I have no difficulty understanding their aversion to being converted into Swiss Cheeses. Further, I prefer seeing options which allow for dealing with a situation without going LAPD on people and turning loose more ammunition than was fired on D-Day.

A 15,000 pound Bearcat will afford personnel protection from rifle fire and will not serve as a credible offensive weapon. I could build a better offensive vehicle myself with the tools I have available. By contrast, an MRAP is a much more hardened armored fighting vehicle designed to absorb attacks administered with much heavier weapons than a Bearcat can withstand. Further, this ~40,000 pound platform is much more capable of being used offensively. After all, it is a military combat platform, not a bulletproof taxicab.

A new Bearcat is not cheap. The federal government was handing out MRAPs for free. Now, when you get a used, and likely used hard vehicle on which all the parts are at least twice as expensive as those on that new Bearcat (and the custom parts outside the realm of the off the shelf basic truck chassis far more expensive yet), your 'free' vehicle can get expensive really quick.

Even as a skeptic regarding militarized police, there needs to be a workable balance, and having a Bearcat or two, limited offensive capability and all, seems to be a far more balanced approach and still affords the option of closing on a live shooter or recovering personnel or nonparticipant targets under fire. This strikes me as a very acceptable compromise. Now, if someone suggests adopting the Bearcat as the standard patrol vehicle, I might have something to say about that, but owning one or two in a community where enough happens to justify a better alternative than collecting bullets does not appear to be unreasonable in concept or fiscally unacceptable.

 

[actaeon277]

So, how's the officer doing?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Now, now, let's not project. Stating my opinion that such vehicles are a waste of money and accomplish nothing but empire building is not being dismissive. It is simply looking at the numbers.

Sure, stating your opinion is not being dismissive. All the fluff about toys and calendars being the motive, though, you know that's condescending....just as much as your first line here.

Everyone here apparently. More to the point, I get to have an opinion.

Moving on to playing the victim? Yes, you get an opinion. We also get to call you out on your tone, your mixture of misinformation and lack of information, and present our side of why these tools are needed and how they are used. Within the rules of INGO, you get to be condescending and arrogant as you are tend to be when things don't do your way. We get to point out that behavior, as long as we don't stray into personal insult.

Where you are correct is the taxpayers get a say. As such, and since it's our literal backsides on the line when it comes to safety equipment, we have presented the other side of the story. That these aren't some PR stunt and aren't toys. They are serious tools for serious situations. Not everything can be "quantified", particularly human life. If you wish to make the argument that the woman should have sheltered in place while being shot at because it saves money, advance that argument instead of some nebulous "how do we quantify it" quasi-argument. If you wish to argue that active shooters such as at the Planned Parenthood where the Bearcat was used to breach and save lives couldn't happen here, make that argument. "Has it happened?" is not an argument. If you wish to argue that they cost is not worth it...I've yet to see you give any idea you actually know what it costs. Yet you're willing to use your "toy" argument. Well, we are also attempting to influence public perception. So the public knows what these vehicles actually do, the benefits they have, and why they should support their use for the safety of both officers and the community. I fully understand that without community support, we can lose the use of these tools. I also understand that will result in more risk for officers and to the community they serve.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I have no issue explaining the need when questioned.

Ok. Fine.

But I think we can agree it has to be more than "cops will die" if we don't get _______ (fill in the blank).

When my answers are ignored,

Alrighty then. Can you give me examples (public record if you can--I know every call out does not make the paper--but I trust what you tell me) of when the Bearcat performed its intended role and protected officers from harm where an ordinary squad car or ballistic shield would not perform as well?

Like a few examples and we can analyze them, and I promise to holster the snark.