If you saw this guy, would you shoot him?

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  • Rating - 0%
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    Jan 21, 2011
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    Sometimes you make life changing mistakes in an instant, being certain that you are doing exactly what you should. Both videos illustrate this.

    A police officer has many more opportunities a day to make a bad decision than the average person. Just like us, their training and their experience and their personal demeanor all are factors. A circumstance where I even CONSIDER shooting a person is pretty rare. Police on the other hand are often coming into situations that I make every effort to avoid. It sure looks here like the first officers training got the better of him. The second officer made the exact opposite mistake. Both mistakes were deadly. If each one had been in the others shoes, There would be nothing to see here.

    Both officers were decent people. The first one immediately recognized his error and expressed grief at what he had done. The second one plainly was hesitant to hurt somebody, even when they were asking for it. These aren't rogue cops. There is no abuse of authority or attempt to cover-up. I could easily rip on both of them but what is the point? This is not police misconduct, It is a horrible mistake made by people. While training looks to be a factor in the first, the same training would have saved the second cops life.

    I have as much hatred for authority as the next guy. When a cop is crooked I can't wait to pile on the scorn. This..... This is just tragic. All of us run the same risk when we carry our guns with the thought of self defense, and most of us have a lot less experience and training than an officer. We could be starring in the same videos, making the same mistakes. The fact that the officer has done it RIGHT a hundred times, SHOULD be taken into consideration. If it was us, our percentage would be 1 for 1. Yes, WE would be judged more harshly than this officer. There are so many videos of rogue cops for us to pile on....... This is not one of them.
     
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    Bunnykid68

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    You mean other than disobeying the orders of the officer? You mean other than pointing an object, which looks like a shotgun, at the officer after disobeying the officers instructions? Yeah, other than those indications, there were no indications.

    Are not the police allowed the right of self-defense?

    What if the man that shot him was not the police?

    He would be in jail facing murder charges because he didnt have crappy fuzzy dashcam footage like the officer had.
     

    LEaSH

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    You mean other than disobeying the orders of the officer? You mean other than pointing an object, which looks like a shotgun, at the officer after disobeying the officers instructions? Yeah, other than those indications, there were no indications.

    Are not the police allowed the right of self-defense?

    What if the man that shot him was not the police?
    Of couse they do. And we all have a responsibity to get it right. He didn't get it right.

    I don't blame the cop as much as I do his training. He has been trained to react to perceived threats with deadly force.

    And no, I do not know of a better way to train or ingrain ESP. If it is mathmatically acceptable that mistakes like these are going to happen, dont let the lawyer in you stop you from saying that is what it is.
     

    steveh_131

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    Sounds like a pretty good summary of a traffic cops JOB. From your response, I would assume that you have not progressed in life beyond "would you like fries with that?", or have a serious issue with police. Perhaps you would prefer that police just let everyone go, and do as they please. While I can understand the butthurt you might receive over a speeding ticket or a DUI, the police are there for a reason, and at the very least making sure anything suspicious is only that, and not a murderer or bank robber on the lamb.

    Your link didn't answer my question. You implied that is becoming more common for officers to be shot on the side of the road. Do you have any evidence to back this up? What percentage of traffic stops result in an officer being shot? Has this percentage increased in recent years?

    Once again, if it's so damn dangerous to pull someone over then feel free to stop doing it so much.
     
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    Jan 21, 2011
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    Of couse they do. And we all have a responsibity to get it right. He didn't get it right.

    I don't blame the cop as much as I do his training. He has been trained to react to perceived threats with deadly force.

    And no, I do not know of a better way to train or ingrain ESP. If it is mathmatically acceptable that mistakes like these are going to happen, dont let the lawyer in you stop you from saying that is what it is.

    Collateral damage...... It's an ugly concept, but what else do we have? The officer will have to face the same shooting review board as a rogue cop who covers an aggravated murder does. He will be punished as the law allows.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Why didnt the officer keep shooting when the bad guy refused to drop the gun?

    Your link didn't answer my question. You implied that is becoming more common for officers to be shot on the side of the road. Do you have any evidence to back this up? What percentage of traffic stops result in an officer being shot? Has this percentage increased in recent years?

    Once again, if it's so damn dangerous to pull someone over then feel free to stop doing it so much.

    http://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/Criminal Procedure in American Society/OfficersAssaulted.pdf

    long read, but I assume one can easily infer that the numbers posted, have gone up significantly since 1997.
     

    henktermaat

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    Job #1 of any officer is officer safety, first and foremost. Much is done under that purpose.

    If this officer felt he needed to shoot an old man in the stomach for grabbing his cane, them I'm sure him and all other police officers feel it was justified, because it's right in line with Job #1.

    All other police comments and replies about this incident stem from their golden standard and sole purpose; Job #1. They will defend this (and any) action as long as it was "for officer safety."
     

    Bunnykid68

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    Your link didn't answer my question. You implied that is becoming more common for officers to be shot on the side of the road. Do you have any evidence to back this up? What percentage of traffic stops result in an officer being shot? Has this percentage increased in recent years?

    Once again, if it's so damn dangerous to pull someone over then feel free to stop doing it so much.

    Especially over plates and a license plate light.
     

    Kutnupe14

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    Job #1 of any officer is officer safety, first and foremost. Much is done under that purpose.

    If this officer felt he needed to shoot an old man in the stomach for grabbing his cane, them I'm sure him and all other police officers feel it was justified, because it's right in line with Job #1.

    All other police comments and replies about this incident stem from their golden standard and sole purpose; Job #1. They will defend this (and any) action as long as it was "for officer safety."

    Surely you aren't implying the officer shot the man after he was fully aware that he was elderly, and was reaching for a cane?
     

    henktermaat

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    88GT

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    Why does LE seem immune to one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety? Know your target. Doesn't that mean ascertaining with a fair degree of certainty who it is and why he deserves to be shot?
     

    steveh_131

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    http://blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/Criminal Procedure in American Society/OfficersAssaulted.pdf

    long read, but I assume one can easily infer that the numbers posted, have gone up significantly since 1997.

    Ok. I read your PDF. The ratio of homicides to traffic stops dropped significantly between 1988 and 1997. Sounds like they were on a downward trend, to me.

    Problem: Traffic stops are dangerous.
    Bad solution: Treat every subject of a traffic stop as if he is about to pull a gun and shoot you.
    Better solution: Stop pulling people over all the time.
     

    steveh_131

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    Why does LE seem immune to one of the cardinal rules of firearm safety? Know your target. Doesn't that mean ascertaining with a fair degree of certainty who it is and why he deserves to be shot?

    Ain't nobody got time fo dat. This traffic revenue isn't going to generate itself.
     

    88GT

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    Here's an FYI for you. Timothy McVeigh was caught on a routine traffic stop because of issues with his plate.

    So what? Should we start pulling every body over for the slightest infraction on the chance he might, just maybe, be guilty of or wanted for some bigger crime?

    If you have to rely on traffic stops to solve crimes.....
     
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