If Glocks are so good...

[HICKMAN]

Handgun owners are a lot like car owners. There are those that are perfectly happy to drive around all day in a $100 "beater" that runs well and starts every day. Then there are those owners that demand a vehicle that performs properly and looks good at the same time.

great analogy

 

[wally05]

am I supposed to take your word on that? I wasn't aware of the U.S. military issuing AK's.



In your opinion.



Good for you!

You keep arguing as if the military is the be-all-end-all when it comes to hand guns. I'd wager they used rifles more, whereas LEO's use pistols more.

I'm fully aware the spec-ops guys have the ability to purchase whatever weapon they think best suites their mission. None of the arguments above disprove the Glock's ability as a combat firearm and I haven't heard many complaints from the Iraqi Security Forces.

Nobody is saying that the military is the end all. But, the United States tests their service weapons, including their pistols, more in 10 years than most countries do in 20 years. The berettas have seen a ton of service and since the military just ordered 450,000 more to also arm the Iraqi forces, I think they are working just fine. A single m9 was never meant to be used for as long as the military has been using some of their older m9s. It's an aluminum frame, which can be bent and rebuilt like the 1911 could have.

Locking blocks being used are still the old ones that beretta replaced 20 years ago, and the mags were causing problems, so they switched them out for factory or other reliable magazines. These shortcuts were causing the problems some guys were having throughout the years, but since the war has gone on, they have been fixed for the most part. Marines in Fallujah during the battle praised the m9 and so have other troops.


Both the glock 9mm and m9 are fine weapons, but LE does not really ever fire theirs enough to really test them like military operators do. I mean, look at some of the police trade-ins that you find... worn on the outside, but the internals look great. When I was a reserve officer, you could tell who practiced regularly and who didn't by seeing the pistol field-stripped... the same went for the patrol rifles.

Some of these berettas have been through hundreds of recruits and tens of thousands of rounds without proper upkeep.

I've carried both and the glock 17 is awesome with its mag capacity and lightweight, but the m9a1 I carried was also a fantastic pistol. Prices are roughly the same for a 92fs. I'd highly recommend both.

As I said before, I'm only really a fan of the 9mm and .357 sig glock as the design really supports these rounds. We had problems with our issued .40 glocks and I don't like the bigger framed .45acp versions. It's all about what fits in your hand the best and what you shoot better.

My M9a1 pointed much more naturally than my glock, but that's different from person to person. The only thing I don't like about the glock is the weight shift when you fire off most of the magazine... it's something to get used to. But, the DA pull on the beretta takes some practice, but it's nothing that can't be overcome with dry fire practice.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I'm sure they are used on occasion, just like Glocks kill bad guys for LEO's around the globe. Point being that the pistol is not the first thing you grab if you have a choice.

I have a choice and I grab a pistol every day before leaving the house. I think perhaps you meant to say if you're knowingly going into a fight your first choice in weaponry probably wouldn't be a pistol. It would likely be a rifle or even shotgun depending on the location and situation.

I am very comfortable with using a handgun, I know for a fact I can hit anything I need to hit at typical self defense distances without giving it much thought. So, even knowingly going into a fight (or thinking I might be like investigating a bump in the night) I still might opt to take a handgun. Every time I've been awakened and needed to clear my house or property, I've grabbed a handgun and flashlight to do it. I am FAR more practiced in my pistol craft and thus am far more comfortable armed with a 1911 than even my P90 or M16 in many circumstances.

But when I go camping I always take a rifle/carbine and handgun.

 

[HICKMAN]

as I've said before, I can't comment on the M9 as we had 1911's when I was in. The M9's were basically just carried around until the GWOT kicked off, long after I was out. I'm sure it's a damn fine pistol, since a new generation of soldiers have carried it.

What I'm not getting, is that just because the US military doesn't carry a Glock does NOT mean it's not a combat effective weapon. Glock was chosen for use by the Iraqi Security Forces because it performs well in that environment.

I also know the military likes idiot-proof guns with hammers, decockers, external safeties etc.

I am glad you guys like what you were issued, it wasn't well received when I was in, but apparently it's proven itself over the years.

 

[HICKMAN]

I am very comfortable with using a handgun, I know for a fact I can hit anything I need to hit at typical self defense distances without giving it much thought. So, even knowingly going into a fight (or thinking I might be like investigating a bump in the night) I still might opt to take a handgun. Every time I've been awakened and needed to clear my house or property, I've grabbed a handgun and flashlight to do it. I am FAR more practiced in my pistol craft and thus am far more comfortable armed with a 1911 than even my P90 or M16 in many circumstances.

That's good planning and preparedness on your part, use what you are best and most comfortable with. I was of the same opinion until attending a recent ACT class when OBIJON (instructor) went over some statistics of the effectiveness of various firearms.

Made me realize I need to carry a backup pistol and MUST build a rifle or shotgun.

EDIT: and practice MORE to be able to shoot defensively as you did in the video.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I've done some pretty extensive testing of the Glock vs. Beretta and I can say without a doubt the Glock is infinitely more reliable under adverse conditions than the Beretta. If you've seen the infamous videos on YouTube of a guy throwing a Beretta in the mud and firing it, and doing the same with a Glock... that would be me.

Beretta's don't like silty water, sand or soupy mud. The open side allows for the easy and relatively quick ingress of debris into action of the pistol which subsequently causes it to fail to feed. If kept clean the Beretta is superbly reliable, just don't dunk it in silty water, soupy mud or drag it through the sand and it will be fine. For a civilian defensive arm they are great because I like the ergonomics and the inline (straight back - barrel doesn't drop down) recoil allows for very quick follow-up shots. I find that the 92 points naturally for me and aside from being rather large, is a great carry gun.

For a combat weapon I would prefer something other than the M9. I personally would take a Glock or 1911. But I realize that I'm not everyone, and the M9 works well for more inexperienced shooters, more so than the 1911 and perhaps even the Glock.

 

[wally05]

I don't think any guns like silty water, sand, or soupy mud. The open action also allows for one round feeding and making it easy to clear a malfunction. And it won't fire out of battery...

 

[MilitaryArms]

I don't think any guns like silty water, sand, or soupy mud. The open action also allows for one round feeding and making it easy to clear a malfunction. And it won't fire out of battery...

I guess Glock didn't get this memo.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om3KuZFuW_0"]YouTube - Glock mud and water test[/ame]

Beretta did though.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VeAE9MdcbNU"]YouTube - Beretta mud test[/ame]

 

[HICKMAN]

I had seen the Glock in the mud and limp-wrist tests before, cool to know who actually did the vids, nice!

 

[cholmstr]

It comes down to preference, i've trained with them so I have a bias towards them. simple rugged reliable, Glock may not be best around but a solid performer that is proven.

 

[MilitaryArms]

I don't think any guns like silty water, sand, or soupy mud. The open action also allows for one round feeding and making it easy to clear a malfunction. And it won't fire out of battery...

A couple of other points I didn't address that I thought I would.

I've never had a problem clearing a round from a non-open top auto pistol such as the Glock or 1911. The clearing drill is the same for either open top designs or closed slide designs and I've never had a problem with either. So claiming the open top makes clearing stoppages or clearing loaded rounds to make the weapon safe easier certainly hasn't been my experience.

As for loading single rounds, if you're in a fight and loading single rounds you have bigger problems. It's time to transition to your backup gun. If you don't have one, you're up poop creek. Either way, I can easily drop a round in a 1911 or Glock, no problem. But keep in mind that feeding rounds like this into most modern auto loaders is very hard on the extractor as it wasn't designed to work this way. It's quite easy to break an extractor doing this... and if that happens in a fight you're double screwed. So, don't spend to much time practicing this technique.

Both of these points are commonly repeated by Beretta fans as if they have much merit. In my experience these claims of design superiority are pretty baseless and not all that practical. I certainly wouldn't make a buying decision based on these two points.

The fact the Beretta is easily tripped up by being dunked in regionally common pond or river water is more important to me than if I can easily see into my chamber with the slide retracted. I would rather have a closed design such as the Glock that prevents the ingress of debris into the action for military/outdoor work. Also, where the debris enters the Beretta is particularly concerning as it goes straight to the locking block area and slide rails. That's why it doesn't take much to choke one up.

Another reason the Glock is more reliable under adverse conditions is the design of the slide rails. Glocks purposely have very small rails which in turn have a very small surface area. With a smaller surface area comes less friction. Friction is the primary problem with the M9 as silt, sand and other debris has a much bigger area to contact and increase friction. You can see in my test video that the Beretta simply doesn't have the power to close the slide once the debris makes its way into the action. This is obviously due to the increased friction.

You can see that the slots for the slide rails for the Glock are very small in comparison to the Beretta. Large debris simply can't get into the Glocks slide rails like it can on a Beretta. Once in there, the Beretta doesn't handle it so well as the friction it creates causes the pistol to FTF.

 

[sig1473]

am I supposed to take your word on that? I wasn't aware of the U.S. military issuing AK's.



In your opinion.



Good for you!

You keep arguing as if the military is the be-all-end-all when it comes to hand guns. I'd wager they used rifles more, whereas LEO's use pistols more.

I'm fully aware the spec-ops guys have the ability to purchase whatever weapon they think best suites their mission. None of the arguments above disprove the Glock's ability as a combat firearm and I haven't heard many complaints from the Iraqi Security Forces.

I personally have known 2 SEALs over the years and yes AKs were used and still used by them. Heck, SEALs were using them in Vietnam. Maybe you didn't get the memo. SAS are the Special Airborne Service from the UK, not the US so I'm not just claiming the US armed forces which you say I keep quoting. The Mark 23(USP) was developed for the SEALs, so yes the the USP is superior to the Glock. And yes the military is the be-all-end-all when it comes to handguns or any firearm for that fact. I bet you probably haven't even shot an USP before. I have. I own 2 of them, and that is why I got rid of my G23. Both of my USP compacts shot circles around the Glock. Just keep drinking the Glock kool-aid and everything will be OK

 

[Rich.Carpenter]

I guess Glock didn't get this memo.

YouTube - Glock mud and water test

Beretta did though.

YouTube - Beretta mud test

Hmm. I don't know. It doesn't look like you can rule out the possibility that the Beretta was dragged deeper in the mud than the Glock from those videos. It doesn't look like the Beretta was shaken out as well, and it was certainly dropped from a higher point.

Interesting videos, though.

 

[wally05]

First of all, no one is going to actually fire a gun after dragging it through the mud. I can make my glock malfunction if I wanted to. I've seen both weapons choke and die on the firing line. I don't consider a homemade mud drop test an actual durability test...

 

[MilitaryArms]

Hmm. I don't know. It doesn't look like you can rule out the possibility that the Beretta was dragged deeper in the mud than the Glock from those videos. It doesn't look like the Beretta was shaken out as well, and it was certainly dropped from a higher point.

Interesting videos, though.

Actually, I can rule it out. I've done this many times and every time the Beretta fails.

 

[HICKMAN]

I'm glad you've known SEALs, I'm an army guy, not Navy.

I've shot the USP before and liked it, I just prefer my G23 for carry and G35 for competition though. Define "shooting circles"? If it's so good, why doesn't anyone shoot it in matches?

The German GSG9 use Glocks, as does the Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Austria, some Italian SF and Spanish counter-terror units, yada yada, it's not like the gun can't do the job.

Bottom line is, your gun won't kill a bad guy any better than mine will.

and if I wanted a gun with a hammer, I'd carry a 1911 or a Sig.

 

[wally05]

Slide rail surface area doesn't make or break these guns. Also, the open side and locking blocks allows for debris to leave the action.

Your arguments lack base. They are speculative at best. The m9 can operate without a mag to load rounds. The military stated this as a reason to adopt it. It isn't a fanboy thing. I've seen glocks locked up to the point of needing an armorer to take it apart. Closed designs have their weaknesses also if we go off your arguments.

 

[wally05]

Also, at least the m9 won't fire out of battery if crap does get in the action...

 

[wally05]

I'm glad you've known SEALs, I'm an army guy, not Navy.

I've shot the USP before and liked it, I just prefer my G23 for carry and G35 for competition though. Define "shooting circles"? If it's so good, why doesn't anyone shoot it in matches?

The German GSG9 use Glocks, as does the Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Austria, some Italian SF and Spanish counter-terror units, yada yada, it's not like the gun can't do the job.

Bottom line is, your gun won't kill a bad guy any better than mine will.

and if I wanted a gun with a hammer, I'd carry a 1911 or a Sig.

like I said, the who's who of non combatants... Lol. Seriously though, sig, glock, and beretta make fine weapons.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Slide rail surface area doesn't make or break these guns. Also, the open side and locking blocks allows for debris to leave the action.

Your arguments lack base. They are speculative at best.

LOL, that's funny. Lack base, aside from actual tests... something you've obviously never done. Keep talking about what you've read in Guns and Ammo, meanwhile I'll actually test the weapons, video it and talk from experience.