I can't believe people are still asking what if he didn't have a fence... what if he didn't have a dog, what if he was the amputee. That's not the friggin question, the fence had a maintenance issue that was fixed. Next is it a stray or is it a loose dog, op stated it was a stray so who is going to sue him? The only legal problem I see is from the discharge inside city limits so why do we keep talking a out it?
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I was charged by a growling dog today!
- Thread starter Chase515
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IncendiaryGunner
Master
I disagree - I believe they prepare people for the things that very commonly happen when people are involved in a shooting. Justified or not, legal ramifications are common. Understanding risks involved does not mean you should not defend yourself. If you are in danger, you will not worry about the legal ramifications - you will worry about defending yourself. If you are truly worried about "should I HAVE shot" after the fact... You probably should not have shot, right? If you are asking the question "Is it ok to shoot in this situation" - it is probably NOT the situation to shoot.
If you are put in the situation where your life is in danger, even trouble with the law will not trump defending your life. If you need to shoot, you will not be asking can I shoot.
Yes. I have personally been involved with bite work myself, and will likely be used as the dummy again in the future. I have worked with nearly every breed of working dog, and am generally not fearful of strays. Can they bite? Ofcourse, they have teeth... But a person open carrying COULD shoot me... Am I afraid of them because they have a firearm... no... I would be afraid if they acted aggressively or I had a reason to believe they intended to harm me.
Someone breaking into your home is very different then a dog roaming the streets. People open fences, and doors, and wield weapons. When someone breaks into your home they are a criminal, and you should assume they have intent harm you. When someone demonstrates the intent to violate people, you can reasonably assume they do not have compassion for other people; negotiation is not required. I believe a home invader and stray dog are in totally different categories of danger. Even though dogs pose risk, a dog roaming the street generally does not have intent to harm you. If a dog is acting aggressive, and shooting it is the only way to protect yourself or others - that is totally different.
Nobody blamed the victim - so I do not know where that came from... There was no victim... If a victim exists in this story, is the dog that has the irresponsible owner, and is wandering the street.
If he was scared, and fearing injury shot the dog - would I blame him? No... I would blame the dog's owner. However, if he has the option of protecting himself and his pet by utilizing his gate, and chose to shoot the dog anyway - the situation changes.
I would also not tell him that he is going to be able to avoid a sticky situation if he does.
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I guess it all depends on your definition of "common".
There's a big difference between saying "it could happen so be prepared for it" and "you ARE going to be arrested, convicted and/or sued so be ready for it".
You would think so...unless it has been drilled into you everyday by gun-owners & non-gunowners alike that you will be sent to prison & sued so you better be 100% damn sure that you need to shoot before you pull the trigger. You can't see how that might make even the most certain situation that most of us will be in a little less certain?
You can always second guess yourself. As a matter of fact I've heard that's a VERY common thing to happen to somebody after they've been involved in a self-defense situation. Even to cops who are "highly trained" & have a pretty good support system in place to help them deal with it.
So, yeah, I can easily see how somebody who is 100% justified in shooting somebody might look back & think "did I really have to shoot?" Does that question somehow then make them guilty of manslaughter?
As to someone asking the question "should I shoot in this situation", I think that is a VERY valid question. Especially if it is asked before a situation arises that could be similar to the question being asked. It helps you solidify in your mind under what circumstances it would be OK to use deadly force in self-defense. That way you don't waste precious milliseconds evaluating the situation to decide if you would be justified because "crap! If I'm wrong I could go to prison."
The threat of death is not the only reason to be justified in using deadly force & a lot of people don't realize that. There just needs to be an imminent threat of serious bodily injury. Just being knocked unconcious counts as SBI.
OTOH, there are others who think that it's OK to kill someone for just simply stealing their stuff with no threat of harm to them. If people don't ask the questions then those internal questions never get answered until its too late. You're either in jail or seriously injured.
And that is exactly what we are discussing here. The OP said the dog acted agressively toward him/his dog. We're not just talking about a dog wandering around the neighborhood like you seem to be implying.
Um, yeah, like the OP stated in his first post...
You are trying to act like I am comparing two different types of situations - an agressive human & a non-agressive dog. I'm not. I'm comparing two similar scenarios - a home invader & an aggressive dog. In both cases deadly force is justified to protect yourself.
The OP is asking if it is legal to shoot an aggressive dog. The answer is definitely yes if the person is in reasonable danger of serious bodily injury. It doesn't have to be "the only way". It just has to be reasonable.
There could be many different things that someone COULD do IF given the time to step back & methodically formulate a plan of action in the face of a charging dog. Luckily for us the SCOTUS has ruled that we can't be held to that unreasonably high of a standard in evaluating whether our actions were reasonable under the circumstances we were in.
"Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore, in this Court at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant, rather than to kill him." - O.W. Holmes - Brown v. US.
Only through the luck of the dog running off when kicked is there no victim. Saying that it's his fault that he was in that situation because he didn't fix his fence in the first place is blaming the victim - or at least blaming the POTENTIAL victim.
That opinion is NOT supported by any law. There is no law to have a fence so there is no law that says you have to keep the gate closed. Since I have a fence, if the gate is left open (which it is almost all the time) would I be held legally responsible for shooting a dog that comes into my yard & tries to attack me? Should I be required to run TOWARD the dog in order to shut my gate to prevent myself from having to shoot the aggressive dog if I see him outside my fence? Similarly, should I be held legally responsible for shooting a person who illegaly enters my house if I left the doors unlocked?
Are there situations where it would be unreasonable to shoot an aggressive dog? Sure. The dog could be charging me while I was inside the fence with no way to harm me. If I shoot the dog then it is unreasonable.
That's not the scenario presented. The dog was in his yard charging his dog & maybe him. He was lucky the dog left when he kicked it, otherwise he could have been seriously injured. I would not have blamed him at all if he shot the dog. If anybody else does, well,...
IncendiaryGunner
Master
Keeping your fence closed will keep dogs out of your yard. Dogs that cannot get to you, pose no risk.
Keeping a gate closed is safer than leaving it open and then planning to shoot any animal that enters.
Legal ramifications of are common when people discharge firearms - it happens frequently. Nobody said legal ramifications will arise - people pointed out that they may. If you do not need to shoot - you do not need to shoot. Nobody said to be so scared that you do not defend yourself - but reading between the lines he is not asking "should I defend myself if it is the only choice?" - he was asking "if I see this dog again, can I shoot it without ramifications?". Since it is impossible to answer that question with certainty, I see no problem with pointing that out.
The only part where the dog is mentioned to be aggressive - was in the title. Since the story did not sound like a person being "charged by a growling dog today!" his description makes it sound a bit exaggerated. I am going by his words, and maybe he left key parts out by mistake - but he did not even mention a dog growling in the story.
He saw a dog in his yard and yelled at it to leave.
He then let his dog out. Either the fence was open when he did this, or someone opened it after he let the dog out - I am going to assume the first since he mentioned that the dog does not leave when the gate is open. He makes this out to be a natural occurrence.
Nobody is saying trouble is guaranteed if he shoots.
You can keep the gate closed - and the dog does not pose a threat. It is a simple solution to a problem that does not involve firing upon a living creature.
If the dog jumps the fence and is acting aggressive, different story. If the dog happens to get in acting aggressive, different story.
If you purposely leave the gate open to then shoot the dog - that is it's own case, is it not?
Fences serve a beneficial purpose. This is exactly the type of situation that makes the useful.
Keeping a gate closed is safer than leaving it open and then planning to shoot any animal that enters.
Legal ramifications of are common when people discharge firearms - it happens frequently. Nobody said legal ramifications will arise - people pointed out that they may. If you do not need to shoot - you do not need to shoot. Nobody said to be so scared that you do not defend yourself - but reading between the lines he is not asking "should I defend myself if it is the only choice?" - he was asking "if I see this dog again, can I shoot it without ramifications?". Since it is impossible to answer that question with certainty, I see no problem with pointing that out.
The only part where the dog is mentioned to be aggressive - was in the title. Since the story did not sound like a person being "charged by a growling dog today!" his description makes it sound a bit exaggerated. I am going by his words, and maybe he left key parts out by mistake - but he did not even mention a dog growling in the story.
He saw a dog in his yard and yelled at it to leave.
He then let his dog out. Either the fence was open when he did this, or someone opened it after he let the dog out - I am going to assume the first since he mentioned that the dog does not leave when the gate is open. He makes this out to be a natural occurrence.
Nobody is saying trouble is guaranteed if he shoots.
You can keep the gate closed - and the dog does not pose a threat. It is a simple solution to a problem that does not involve firing upon a living creature.
If the dog jumps the fence and is acting aggressive, different story. If the dog happens to get in acting aggressive, different story.
If you purposely leave the gate open to then shoot the dog - that is it's own case, is it not?
Fences serve a beneficial purpose. This is exactly the type of situation that makes the useful.
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Ok. First of all you should not need a fence for you to feel safe and free of hazard from stray animals. So your fence is not the problem contrary to what some of these morons think. Second this is not a wild animal but a domesticated canine owned by an irresponsible pet owner. Many times these individuals feel that its everyones fault but their own when something happens to their animal. I love dogs but if you're going to have an animal the size of a lab near people and other animals you need to maintain control at all times. I actually think it would have been appropriate to detain the animal and call the dog cops to take him in just so there is a record of the owners irresponsibility. This way maybe the owner will understand their duty to protect the general public from their animal before something bad happens. Anyways, I don't believe you have a legal right to shoot the animal in this situation. It may even be illegal to discharge a firearm depending on where you live.
IncendiaryGunner
Master
You should not need a gun for you to feel safe and free of hazard from threats.
Like guns, fences are tools that may be utilized to safeguard us from danger.
In an ideal world of unicorns and rainbows, stray dogs and violent criminals would not exist. Since that is not the world we live in, both fences and guns serve a purpose.
If the owner of the lab was responsible enough to have a maintained, closed fence - this situation would not exist.
The fence was never the problem - the roaming dog was the problem. The fence can be helpful in negating the possibility of danger the problem causes.
Like guns, fences are tools that may be utilized to safeguard us from danger.
In an ideal world of unicorns and rainbows, stray dogs and violent criminals would not exist. Since that is not the world we live in, both fences and guns serve a purpose.
If the owner of the lab was responsible enough to have a maintained, closed fence - this situation would not exist.
The fence was never the problem - the roaming dog was the problem. The fence can be helpful in negating the possibility of danger the problem causes.
I don't disagree that the use of the fence, like the use of a gun, to possibly prevent a situation fom occuring is reasonable & prudent...
BUT...
Neither are required.
Whether the OP had no fence, a fence with an open gate, a broken fence or a completely functional & secure fence if an agressive dog came into his yard & he felt that he was under threat of him or his dog being seriously injued if he shot the dog IT WOULDN'T BE HIS FAULT IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM! It would be completely the aggressive dogs fault &, by extension, the TRULY irresponsible dog owners fault! Any and all "ramifications" from the use of force should be borne completely by the bad dogs owner.
I just can't for the life of me see how the OP, whose personal space was violated is the one who is being held "irresponsible".
I refuse to be held at all accountable if a stray/loose dog comes into my yard & threatens me, intact fence or not, & I need to use force to protect myself. Period.
Bunnykid68
Grandmaster
What did the dog charge him with? Was the dog a prosecutor and did it have any right to charge him?
GeneralCarver
Marksman
Was the dog being violent or was he just hanging around trying to find himself a home?
IncendiaryGunner
Master
In my opinion, the situation would not be his fault in either case, but that is nowhere near the point.
Even in situations you did not cause, and may not be faulted with - multiple ways to handle them exist.
Some choices we make can be considered more responsible than others. If you own a dog, having a fence is more responsible than not having a fence. Is a fence a legal requirement of dog ownership? Of course not... but it sure helps protect your animal from getting out, and helps protect your animal from other roaming animals.
Unless someone is in imminent danger, avoiding a shoot is more responsible than shooting. If you must ask people on the internet "can I shoot (insert)" - you probably should not shoot it.
Like many things in life, every situation has more than one answer. In this situation, required or not, the OP has a fence. The question is not "should he have a fence" - the fence already exists, and can be used as a tool to keep the dog out of his yard in the future.
Does he need to shoot? No...
If he shoots, will he get into a sticky situation? Maybe yes, maybe no...
If he does not shoot, and closes the fence, is he likely to get into a sticky situation... No...
If he does not shoot, and closes the fence, is his dog likely to be attacked by a stray... No...
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the dog met his fate today. I stepped out my back door and was greeted by him growling. I went back in and tried to exit the other door. And couldnt make it out the fence. I called the police and no one ever showed up again for the second time. I tried to leave again and it charged growling again. For all of you who said i would be sued, **** off. The owner said he would take care of the broken fence. And his dog had never been fixed..
Wait why are so mad at people just trying to warn you of the outcome of your self defense?
kickbacked
Master
- Jan 12, 2010
- 2,393
- 113
You rolled the dice, now be ready to take what comes with it. Hopefully you didnt hit someones house. In my opinion, you only draw and fire your weapon when there is no other option. Unless the dog was breaking down your door or had you pend in a corner. i dont think you continuing to go outside and it barking at you means you should shoot it.
I know the OP has said he fixed his fence, but there's a monumental failure of logic in this statement. My dog has never been outside his fenced yard without being on a leash. Twice I've had neighborhood dogs get into the fenced portion of my yard. Yet there is NO REPAIR NEEDED TO MY FENCE. The "intruders" were simply large enough to jump/climb their way over.
And I don't think a man should be held hostage in his own home by a dog that exhibits aggressive signs. I think he showed great restraint in not shooting the first time. I've come closer to shooting a neighborhood dog while I was walking down the sidewalk with my children.
redsuperduty
Marksman
It's a shame so many of us are very careful and curtious to keep our dogs in check, yet others let theirs wander the whole community. My dog is very dear to me, I'll promptly kill any animal that poses a possible threat to my family or my dog if it's on my property. I don't blame you one bit. 
Gloating about your victory over a dog and perhaps avoiding a lawsuit...a proud moment for you indeed
Death could have been avoided here. It's sad that you chose to kill the dog. Shooting should always be the last resort...I hope you learn that sooner better then later.
Sorry you had to kill the dog but you did what you had to do.
If no cops were involved & there were no one else around besides you & the dog then I can't see this going any further, especially if the owner is being OK with it.
OTOH, if the "thing" you "executed" was a 15 YO criminal laying on the ground incapacitated by a bullet in his head then you'd have been getting "attaboys" by several of the members here.
Just keep it in perspective. At least it wasn't a person...
If no cops were involved & there were no one else around besides you & the dog then I can't see this going any further, especially if the owner is being OK with it.
OTOH, if the "thing" you "executed" was a 15 YO criminal laying on the ground incapacitated by a bullet in his head then you'd have been getting "attaboys" by several of the members here.
Just keep it in perspective. At least it wasn't a person...
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