I got a NICS denial that I can prove is false, but...

[rmg200]

Saw this on reddit. Here is what the OP said:


"A couple weekends ago I went into my local big-box outdoor store to pick up an SR-22 they had on sale. I dutifully fill out my 4473 and explain to the guy processing it that I'm one of those folks that just lives in delay, so we made small talk until it finally came back delayed. I told him I'd see him on Thursday to pick up my pistol and left. The following Thursday I went by the store to pickup the pistol and was told that I had received a deny. Dumbfounded, I took the NTN, went home, filled out the online appeals form and attached a copy of my fingerprints, and waited. On Friday, I received the a letter stating that the reason for the denial was a violation of question 11(c) (Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?). I called NICS support and spoke to a lady who supposedly looked into it again and came back telling me that the system shows that me (or someone like me) was convicted of a crime that prohibits me, but she couldn't tell me any details.

Now, I can prove that the record is wrong. I've never worried about it before because it was just an inconvenience, but in the end, I still got a default proceed. Once before I got a deny on day 2, but the very next day, NICS called the FFL back and put me in delay again. I didn't even hear about it until I went to pickup the firearm (the FFL couldn't get in touch with me to tell me about the deny). The problem is, the FBI stopped processing NICS appeals back in January. Normally, I'd just wait for the appeals process to finish, get a UPIN, and move on with my life, but with no appeals process in place, how am I supposed to clear this up?

Even though I've bought firearms before, I've never had the ATF come knocking on the door looking to retrieve any of them because I was a prohibited person. Since my last purchase, I haven't had so much as a speeding ticket. To be on the safe side, I've moved my firearms out of my possession, but this has got me pretty freaked out since I have no idea where to even begin to get them back without an appeals process.

What can I possibly do in this situation? I've even got a Form 1 submitted right now for a suppressor, though it is under a Trust, so I don't know what's going to happen with that. Is it worth it to try to contact the NRA? Could a lawyer do anything in this situation, like sue the DOJ or something? I'm just at a complete loss here...

EDIT: Called the NRA. They told me that it's political and that there's nothing they can do. He said my best bet would be to "wait and see if they start processing appeals again". Wow... just... wow.
I also called a local gun lawyer. They want $150 just to schedule a consultation. Looks like I'm just screwed here."


Link for comments, everybody says lawyer up and sue for 2nd amendment and 5th amendment rights violations. Thoughts?


https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/4acxle/i_got_a_nics_denial_that_i_can_prove_is_false_but/

 

[jgressley2003]

Wow that's a huge mess. Seems like to me that if he can prove his identification then he should be able to buy a firearm. If he is an improper person to the ATF then why aren't they at his door asking questions? If a supposed felon was trying to buy a firearm wouldn't that be a violation of the law? Maybe I'm looking at this too broadly, but it appears to me that this could be a way for the government to strip us of our rights. Say for example a Nate Black commits a felony, now all Nate Black's are banned from obtaining firearms and no appeal process either?

 

[voidsherpa]

Better get the ACLU on it for those 5th amendment violations.

 

[HoughMade]

Saw this on reddit. Here is what the OP said:
Now, I can prove that the record is wrong.

How? I'm not sure can prove that I'm not a felon without getting certified records from every state (and country). So how can he prove the record is wrong unless he knows what the record says and has specific evidence. More detail would help.

I've never worried about it before because it was just an inconvenience, but in the end, I still got a default proceed.

So does he know what the problem is or not?

Once before I got a deny on day 2, but the very next day, NICS called the FFL back and put me in delay again. I didn't even hear about it until I went to pickup the firearm (the FFL couldn't get in touch with me to tell me about the deny)...

Seems like he knows what the issue is. Without more detail, all I can say is that there's something here. Maybe it's sharing a name with a ne'er do well, but it seems not to be that simple.

Oh, and the guys buying guns, but doesn't have $150 to consult a lawyer. O...........................K. Guess it isn't that important to him.

 

[Dirtebiker]

Wow that's a huge mess. Seems like to me that if he can prove his identification then he should be able to buy a firearm. If he is an improper person to the ATF then why aren't they at his door asking questions? If a supposed felon was trying to buy a firearm wouldn't that be a violation of the law? Maybe I'm looking at this too broadly, but it appears to me that this could be a way for the government to strip us of our rights. Say for example a Nate Black commits a felony, now all Nate Black's are banned from obtaining firearms and no appeal process either?

You think they have the man power to track down everyone that gets denied? I'm pretty sure it's not illegal to get denied.

 

[Libertarian01]

This happens. Relax and breathe. There have been some posts about this issue before but I haven't read them in too much detail as they haven't pertained to me.

It is my understanding that the BATFE has a special form for special people with similar issue. So you fill it out and you are no longer just "Nate Black." Rather you are Nathan James Odell Black III, serial number 01357924680. Then, when you go to purchase said product you either substitute this paper for the 4473 OR you attach it with the 4473 (I don't know which.)

As they are simply following the law and regulations, there is no foul - yet.

Of course, I would go to someone like Guy Relford and pay for the professional input as you may not have a thorough understanding of your own situation. Legal terms don't always mean what we think they mean, and getting some professional help will go a very long way to avoiding speed bumps in the future.

Good luck!

Regards,

Doug

 

[Dirtebiker]

Sounds like he should have gotten the UPIN as soon as he started getting delays.

 

[Tactically Fat]

Sounds like he should have gotten the UPIN as soon as he started getting delays.

I don't think you can. I think you have to get a denial first.

 

[Frosty]

Why, if he had issues before, wouldn't he just put down his ss#??? I think houghmade nailed it though, dudes got issues, and he got around them before, but now he can't so he's crying about it.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Until some pencil pusher at the top decides that it is prudent to put agents back on the appeals desk, you are pretty much screwed. They pulled all the appeals agents off that duty to allow for more NICS call processing since there is no funding to hire more agents. It REALLY sucks. Thats about like federal judges deciding they arent going to hear any appeals until their regular new case log clears up. We all know neither backlog is going to clear anytime soon.

Given that, I understand why you wouldnt want to pay a consultation fee. Just a guess, but given the above info, I get the feeling the lawyer is going to say the same thing. After all, if there is nobody there to process the appeal, how can you win? Outside of suing the federal government to force them to re-establish the appeals process, I dont see how. So that $150 consult now becomes a $10,000 bill for a lawsuit.

As a side note, is this a grey area for a private sale? With that denial, is it bad to bypass the retail channel and only do private sales? Or would that be playing with fire?

 

[Dirtebiker]

I don't think you can. I think you have to get a denial first.

Nope, everybody's eligible.

 

[CampingJosh]

I haven't ever been delayed yet, but the dealer told me last time that he was passed to a second examiner.

I have a rather common first name and a very common last name, so I always include my social security number.

 

[Trigger Time]

Upin

 

[Expat]

I would call my Congressman's office and maybe both Senators.

 

[AA&E]

How? I'm not sure can prove that I'm not a felon without getting certified records from every state (and country). So how can he prove the record is wrong unless he knows what the record says and has specific evidence. More detail would help.



So does he know what the problem is or not?



Seems like he knows what the issue is. Without more detail, all I can say is that there's something here. Maybe it's sharing a name with a ne'er do well, but it seems not to be that simple.

Oh, and the guys buying guns, but doesn't have $150 to consult a lawyer. O...........................K. Guess it isn't that important to him.

For a guy that throws around the word 'allegedly' frequently on these pages... you seem quite suspect of the person in question. I've known many people to get delayed that hold top level security clearances. One of which ended up denied and had to appeal the ruling. Obviously there is something wrong within the system that determines you are trustworthy enough to possess information that can cause grave danger to US interests, but not trustworthy enough to purchase a firearm.

 

[Expat]

Proving a negative...

 

[M67]

Obviously there is something wrong within the system that determines you are trustworthy enough to possess information that can cause grave danger to US interests, but not trustworthy enough to purchase a firearm.

The NICS system depends on human input, humans can, do, and will screw up and enter wrong information on the wrong person

 

[bgcatty]

With all due respect, the comment that you called a local lawyer and was told it would be $150 for a consult is a little off the mark. Do you expect free consultations from your doctor? Of course not, you have to pay for it with cash or insurance. So why shouldn't it be any difference with an attorney?

 

[rbane3]

Proving a negative...

This is the law, let's not go bringing logic into this! There's no place for that here. If we were to, however, wouldn't the burden of proof fall on those claiming he is an improper person? And then once their claim has been established in facts (i.e. you killed a man on 06/20/95) the impetus shifts to OP/Article Writer to refute this statement.

 

[HoughMade]

For a guy that throws around the word 'allegedly' frequently on these pages... you seem quite suspect of the person in question. I've known many people to get delayed that hold top level security clearances. One of which ended up denied and had to appeal the ruling. Obviously there is something wrong within the system that determines you are trustworthy enough to possess information that can cause grave danger to US interests, but not trustworthy enough to purchase a firearm.

I am not prejudging. I am suspicious based upon the specific way the problem is described. If I were not, I need to pack up my office and do something else.

If he can "prove it's false".....how? What's the mix up? How do you prove it's false? I don't deny that anything the government runs is bound to be fraught with error, but that doesn't change the words he chose to use to convey his interaction.