i am not a sheepdog

[RandomName]

Introverted sheepdog?

No, he's an experienced one. Its easy to talk about what you would do if this or that, but you never really know until you see muzzle flashes. Being a "hero" can suck. Knowing your decision to act led to another human being's death, even if they had it coming and it was for a really good reason, sucks.

 

[ATM]

No, he's an experienced one. Its easy to talk about what you would do if this or that, but you never really know until you see muzzle flashes. Being a "hero" can suck. Knowing your decision to act led to another human being's death, even if they had it coming and it was for a really good reason, sucks.

Experienced or not, he fits the sheepdog in the old limited analogy.

Sheep? ...nope, he has a capacity for violence and is not in denial regarding the dangers of this world.

Wolf? ...nope, he would not and could not victimize or prey on innocents.

Sheepdog? Yep, even if primarily limited to the scope of himself and his closest loved ones. That's probably not an uncommon position among sheepdogs.

There aren't any other choices in that limited analogy.

To place yourself outside the scope of that analogy one would have to create other options, other symbolic animals, which is to completely change the original limiting and defining parameters from which the analogy was built.
That is not a refutation of your classification within the original (which would require falling into one of the other two categories, which fit far less), it is a completely different discussion.

He doesn't make any arguing points, the points just don't really seem connected to the sheepdog analogy at all. Sheepdogs (or sheep or wolves for that matter) that don't like that analogy are free to make up their own or not participate in any analogy and just discuss their choices and preferred tactics from the natural human perspective as this guy seems to prefer.

No harm in that.

 

[esrice]

What ATM said.

I'm not averse to discussing differing opinions, but I was confused as to what that opinion even was.

 

[TopDog]

I get what he's saying, and agree with most if it, but I don't think he fully understands the "sheepdog" mentality that Grossman describes in "Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs". A sheepdog doesn't have to be a "hero", he just has to have a higher level of self-awareness than the sheep.

^^^^^^^^
This exactly.

The blog in the OP and some others have taken the "sheepdog" mentality out of context. I believe ATM and esrice have a very good handle of the concept of sheepdog.

Those that are still fuzzy on the concept should read Grossman’s book - On Combat. Or this online, On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

The blogger stated "I don't want people to think that I would simply stand by and watch as little children were being massacred." That statement alone sets him apart from the sheep. Some of you would be surprised at the number of sheep that do watch violent crimes and do NOTHING, out of pure fear more than indifference.

I will say this and most likely get flamed. We have our fair share of Sea Lawyers on INGO, if you are the kind of person that can't see the forest for the trees then don't bother reading any of Grossman's stuff, you still wont get it.

 

[RandomName]

Experienced or not, he fits the sheepdog in the old limited analogy.

I agree he's in "sheep dog" territory. I just don't agree on the "introverted" part. Introverts don't post their ideas up in public, unless I misunderstand the word.

 

[repeter1977]

^^^^^^^^
This exactly.

The blog in the OP and some others have taken the "sheepdog" mentality out of context. I believe ATM and esrice have a very good handle of the concept of sheepdog.

Those that are still fuzzy on the concept should read Grossman’s book - On Combat. Or this online, On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs - Dave Grossman

The blogger stated "I don't want people to think that I would simply stand by and watch as little children were being massacred." That statement alone sets him apart from the sheep. Some of you would be surprised at the number of sheep that do watch violent crimes and do NOTHING, out of pure fear more than indifference.

I will say this and most likely get flamed. We have our fair share of Sea Lawyers on INGO, if you are the kind of person that can't see the forest for the trees then don't bother reading any of Grossman's stuff, you still wont get it.

Agree as well. He is a sheepdog simply because he is not a sheep, as he understands that the world is a dangerous place, and has the capacity to do violence. He is not a wolf, because he is not picking on the sheep. Which makes him a sheepdog. Not all sheepdogs are LEOs or Military (although he is former military). He is a sheepdog because he understands that you have to be responsible for yourself. Back up is not always right around the corner and sometimes 5 minutes are about 4 minutes and 59 seconds too late. Sheep do not care if other sheep (such as children) are being picked off, because they are in denial, right up until they are killed.

 

[griffin]

I don't think he fully understands the "sheepdog" mentality that Grossman describes in "Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs".

Here's the sheepdog mentality that Grossman describes, verbatim:

• I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.
• A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
• They would prefer that [the sheepdog] didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16.
• [A sheepdog] is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle.
• The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
• When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there.
• [A sheepdog] is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.
• If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love.

I think that's the point. He's not putting himself in one of those three categories, sheep, sheepdog, or wolf. The problem is other people make those distinctions, especially anti-gunners and Fudds. If you carry a gun you are a wanna-be cop. A pretender. You think you're Rambo, gonna save everyone. You're out looking for a fight, proving your manhood.

This is said about OCers. This is said about CCers. Why do you need to carry a gun? That's what cops are for.

This guy is putting it into perspective. He's not a sheepdog. He's providing for HIS personal safety first and foremost. He's not charged with saving YOUR life. YOU want personal protection? YOU carry a gun yourself. Or take the risk of getting slaughtered while waiting for a sheepdog to save YOUR life.

And as someone else here has already said, not everyone worships at the alter of LTC Grossman. (Or Rob Pincus or James Yeager or...)

 

[TopDog]

Here's the sheepdog mentality that Grossman describes, verbatim:

• I'm a sheepdog. I live to protect the flock and confront the wolf.
• A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed.
• They would prefer that [the sheepdog] didn't tell them where to go, or give them traffic tickets, or stand at the ready in our airports in camouflage fatigues holding an M-16.
• [A sheepdog] is always sniffing around out on the perimeter, checking the breeze, barking at things that go bump in the night, and yearning for a righteous battle.
• The sheep pretend the wolf will never come, but the sheepdog lives for that day.
• When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there.
• [A sheepdog] is able to survive and thrive in an environment that destroys 98 percent of the population.
• If you want to be a wolf, you can be one, but the sheepdogs are going to hunt you down and you will never have rest, safety, trust or love.

I think that's the point. He's not putting himself in one of those three categories, sheep, sheepdog, or wolf. The problem is other people make those distinctions, especially anti-gunners and Fudds. If you carry a gun you are a wanna-be cop. A pretender. You think you're Rambo, gonna save everyone. You're out looking for a fight, proving your manhood.

This is said about OCers. This is said about CCers. Why do you need to carry a gun? That's what cops are for.

This guy is putting it into perspective. He's not a sheepdog. He's providing for HIS personal safety first and foremost. He's not charged with saving YOUR life. YOU want personal protection? YOU carry a gun yourself. Or take the risk of getting slaughtered while waiting for a sheepdog to save YOUR life.

And as someone else here has already said, not everyone worships at the alter of LTC Grossman. (Or Rob Pincus or James Yeager or...)

I first edited the above bold comments with red comments of mine own. But then as read your comments I think you have a good handle of the meaning of what Grossman is saying. And I dont want to pick apart every detail.

The blogger in the OP is not way off base to be sure. But I still feel he has some misconceptions about the concept as whole.

I dont want to nit pick. We could even debate what Grossman meant exactly by Hero. But I dont want to go there. I still feel esrice and ATM expressed the concept most accurately.

If you want to discuss the concept Grossman put forth then you need to confine it to three elements. You are either a sheepdog, a sheep or a wolf.

This has all be discussed on INGO before. I dont want to rehash it anymore, to each his own. Hopefully we all carry for basically the same reasons.

 

[esrice]

He's not putting himself in one of those three categories, sheep, sheepdog, or wolf.

And that's fine. Then he should've said he doesn't agree with the 3 categories that Grossman proposed. But if you're going to use his analogy, where everyone can be divided into 1 of 3 categories, then ya gotta pick one. Based on what I know of the blogger, he fits closer as a sheepdog than the other two categories. That was my point. People always wanna make up a 4th classification to fit their own feelings while neglecting to see the basic point the author was trying to make.

 

[griffin]

And that's fine. Then he should've said he doesn't agree with the 3 categories that Grossman proposed.

He did. He said he wasn't a sheep, but just because he carries a firearm for self-protection doesn't mean he's a sheepdog, either. And he went on to explain why.

 

[repeter1977]

There are 8 Billion types of people on the planet then. Those who can count, and those who cant.