I am *begging* you, stop carrying on an empty chamber.

[netsecurity]

You don't "NEED" a manual safety, thats been proven. You want one. (I don't personally recommend them, but am not against them and see a use for then in some applications) This is especially true if you understand your weapon platform, practice the 4 safety rules, and have a god holster.

The trigger "IS" absolutely part of the the safety on Glocks, M&P's, XD's, and so on.

While it is true that you don't "need" a safety, that doesn't change the fact that many are not comfort carrying a loaded gun without a safety, and I think that is a large part of why they carry with an empty chamber. Do you disagree with that?

You are suggesting that the Glock trigger could not be pulled by anything but a finger. Even if that were true, what happens when a noob puts their "safe trigger" gun into their premium holster, and leave a finger in the trigger guard like that cop in the video? A loose fitting shirt (often worn by Concealed carriers) could also get in the trigger guard, and "hammock" the trigger as the gun is pushed into the holster. The "safe trigger"only prevents object from pushing the trigger at an angle; it is not a safety, and to go around claiming otherwise is outright dangerous IMO. You can follow the four rules and still shoot your leg, and that is what scares me.

A real safety will prevent the trigger from being pulled until you allow it. A real safety will prevent the trigger from being pulled even if a finger or shirt gets in the trigger guard during holstering. Many people are rightly more comfortable with some sort of safety or double action, and should not be admonished for feeling that way. It is as if you are saying "safeties are for sissies", and I think you should be careful not to come off that way. If you are brazen enough to operate without a safety or double action, then that is fine, and a common choice, as many police use Glocks. My problem is pushing the concept of no safety on new gun owners in particular, or making them feel inferior for not having "the best" gun (that being Glock, of course). I hear the information you just repeated explained to them all the time--you don't "need" a safety, you need a Glock because it is proven blah blah.

 

[wizard_of_ahs]

Always in condition 0

 

[SteveM4A1]

I've got you beat, condition butterscotch here!!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If you carry with a manual thumb safety, make sure you can disengage in under stress. Some guns are much better at this than others, but what works for me and my hand size vs grip size may not work for you and your situation. 1911, Beretta M9/92, Walther PPK, etc I never had issues disengaging the safety as part of the draw stroke although I never liked the flip forward motion of the Beretta or Walther. CZ...too small and stiff and I was not able to consistently disengage under time pressure. YMMV. If you carry with a grip safety, make sure that even on a sloppy hasty draw you disengage it.

Whenever I get a new setup, even if its just a new holster, I take some snap caps and get a couple hundred drawstrokes in before I carry it. Sometimes you'll find things you thought were going to work great...don't. I've been there several times. Its better to learn that in practice than on the street. There's a shot timer app for Android that you can adjust to be sensitive enough to hear the hammer drop on a snap cap if you're in an otherwise silent environment. I'll use it in my basement and as long as the sump pump doesn't kick on its fine. Get your gear broken in, then start putting some time pressure on yourself and see if anything falls apart.

 

[churchmouse]

If you carry with a manual thumb safety, make sure you can disengage in under stress. Some guns are much better at this than others, but what works for me and my hand size vs grip size may not work for you and your situation. 1911, Beretta M9/92, Walther PPK, etc I never had issues disengaging the safety as part of the draw stroke although I never liked the flip forward motion of the Beretta or Walther. CZ...too small and stiff and I was not able to consistently disengage under time pressure. YMMV. If you carry with a grip safety, make sure that even on a sloppy hasty draw you disengage it.

Whenever I get a new setup, even if its just a new holster, I take some snap caps and get a couple hundred drawstrokes in before I carry it. Sometimes you'll find things you thought were going to work great...don't. I've been there several times. Its better to learn that in practice than on the street. There's a shot timer app for Android that you can adjust to be sensitive enough to hear the hammer drop on a snap cap if you're in an otherwise silent environment. I'll use it in my basement and as long as the sump pump doesn't kick on its fine. Get your gear broken in, then start putting some time pressure on yourself and see if anything falls apart.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I do this even with the rig I use EDC. Muscle memory. With this MM it gives you more time if even seconds to asses a situation and respond properly.

 

[jamil]

If you carry with a manual thumb safety, make sure you can disengage in under stress. Some guns are much better at this than others, but what works for me and my hand size vs grip size may not work for you and your situation. 1911, Beretta M9/92, Walther PPK, etc I never had issues disengaging the safety as part of the draw stroke although I never liked the flip forward motion of the Beretta or Walther. CZ...too small and stiff and I was not able to consistently disengage under time pressure. YMMV. If you carry with a grip safety, make sure that even on a sloppy hasty draw you disengage it.

Whenever I get a new setup, even if its just a new holster, I take some snap caps and get a couple hundred drawstrokes in before I carry it. Sometimes you'll find things you thought were going to work great...don't. I've been there several times. Its better to learn that in practice than on the street. There's a shot timer app for Android that you can adjust to be sensitive enough to hear the hammer drop on a snap cap if you're in an otherwise silent environment. I'll use it in my basement and as long as the sump pump doesn't kick on its fine. Get your gear broken in, then start putting some time pressure on yourself and see if anything falls apart.

I think that's great advice. I was used to carrying a SA/DA in DA with no safety. So when I thought about carrying the M&P Shield, since it's not SA/DA its manual safety appealed to me. I thought with practice I could make disengaging the safety an automatic part of the draw. In practice, I found was that the shield's safety is small and pretty flush, and I could not consistently disengage it while drawing as fast as I did with the SA/DA. So I decided to carry without using the safety.

 

[churchmouse]

Being one of those cocked and locked 1911 guy's it has been a bit easier to make a seamless draw/un-lock/acquire draw from a Serpa blackhawk. The motion of gripping/un-locking holster/removing from holster is to me far easier than any other gun/holster combo I have tried to get comfortable with.
I have never had issue with putting my finger on the trigger while drawing the pistol with the serpa. Finger stays at rest along the slide as it is drawn and once safety is disengaged the finger can be put where I need it.

 

[TAT7]

While it is true that you don't "need" a safety, that doesn't change the fact that many are not comfort carrying a loaded gun without a safety, and I think that is a large part of why they carry with an empty chamber. Do you disagree with that?

You are suggesting that the Glock trigger could not be pulled by anything but a finger (No I am not, lol, I have no idea how you come to this conclusion). Even if that were true, what happens when a noob puts their "safe trigger" gun into their premium holster, and leave a finger in the trigger guard like that cop in the video(then they get shot, they didn't practice the 4 rules...what happens when they forget to take off the safety? lol, see how that works?) ? A loose fitting shirt (often worn by Concealed carriers) could also get in the trigger guard, and "hammock" the trigger as the gun is pushed into the holsters (I could give examples all day the other way around, stop it) . The "safe trigger"only prevents object from pushing the trigger at an angle; it is not a safety (you are trying to make it look like I a am saying that is the only safety on the gun and that is replacing a manual safety, I never said that. IF you can't understand what I said I am sorry for that), and to go around claiming otherwise is outright dangerous IMO (lol, ok). You can follow the four rules and still shoot your leg, and that is what scares me.

A real safety will prevent the trigger from being pulled until you allow it. A real safety will prevent the trigger from being pulled even if a finger or shirt gets in the trigger guard during holstering. Many people are rightly more comfortable with some sort of safety or double action, and should not be admonished for feeling that way. It is as if you are saying "safeties are for sissies(Your online translations are killing me, lol), and I think you should be careful not to come off that way. If you are brazen enough to operate without a safety or double action, then that is fine, and a common choice, as many police use Glocks. My problem is pushing the concept of no safety on new gun owners in particular, or making them feel inferior for not having "the best" gun (that being Glock, of course). I hear the information you just repeated explained to them all the time--you don't "need" a safety, you need a Glock because it is proven blah blah.

I'm not going back and forth with you on this, I stated my opinion and that's that. I see both sides of the story and I choose to use and advocate what I believe is the smart choice.

 

[TAT7]

For what applications?

The only reason I can see someone needing a manual safety is for pocket carry. But pocket carrying without a holster is just stupid and dumb and shouldn't ever be done.

1911 and the like

 

[ATM]

What are Manatee's four rules of gun safety?

Why do so many feel a need for four?

Rules 2, 3 and 4 would be plenty sufficient. "Rule" #1 isn't even a rule, it's just a mantra.
There is nothing specific to "do" or "don't do" associated with assuming a loaded condition (whether it is actually loaded or not).

"Rule" #1 proved to be insufficient by itself, so actual "do/don't do" rules were added. Unfortunately, instead of replacing the general mantra, they became extensions to it.

If we just had 3 rules, and they were to be applied to firearms all the time (regardless of load status), perhaps people would quit treating them differently when they believe them to be unloaded. "Rule" #1 sets people up to think that adhering to the rest of the rules (the ones that actually prevent tragedy) are contingent upon the real answer to that first one, since nobody in their right mind truly believes that the firearm is loaded at all times.

Just get rid of #1 ...it didn't work.

 

[Manatee]

I've really only got 1 rule: Sh*t happens. Don't put yourself or your family downrange of an idiot.

 

[bwframe]

I've really only got 1 rule: Sh*t happens. Don't put yourself or your family downrange of an idiot.

So your rule is that you know best? Not listening to you makes an idiot? No education for the idiots, they just are?

 

[bwframe]

...
Just get rid of #1 ...it didn't work.

...but the rest did?

 

[ATM]

...but the rest did?

The simplicity of three "do/do not" rules should have no connection with the actual or believed loaded status.
It weakens the potential of their effectiveness as they are still commonly deemed inapplicable to unloaded firearms because of silly mantra #1.

 

[Manatee]

So your rule is that you know best? Not listening to you makes an idiot? No education for the idiots, they just are?

Not quite. I don't expect you to take care of me or my family. I don't give out trust. It is earned. Until it is earned, you're no better than any other stranger with a gun.

That 20 year old could be you…or your brother. Should I have trusted him? How about the 3 year olds parents? Should I let them babysit?

 

[bwframe]

The simplicity of three "do/do not" rules should have no connection with the actual or believed loaded status.
It weakens the potential of their effectiveness as they are still commonly deemed inapplicable to unloaded firearms because of silly mantra #1.

Yet the four rules are widely known and pretty much universally accepted, with the noted exception of yourself and Manatee, of course.

 

[Manatee]

You're gonna need bigger bait or a larger boat if you're gonna troll on INGO, bw.

 

[bwframe]

You're gonna need bigger bait or a larger boat if you're gonna troll on INGO, bw.

Didn't know you had to troll for manatees. I thought they just swam into the prop?

 

[Manatee]

Owwwww.

 

[netsecurity]

If you carry with a manual thumb safety, make sure you can disengage in under stress. Some guns are much better at this than others, but what works for me and my hand size vs grip size may not work for you and your situation. 1911, Beretta M9/92, Walther PPK, etc I never had issues disengaging the safety as part of the draw stroke although I never liked the flip forward motion of the Beretta or Walther. CZ...too small and stiff and I was not able to consistently disengage under time pressure. YMMV. If you carry with a grip safety, make sure that even on a sloppy hasty draw you disengage it.

Whenever I get a new setup, even if its just a new holster, I take some snap caps and get a couple hundred drawstrokes in before I carry it. Sometimes you'll find things you thought were going to work great...don't. I've been there several times. Its better to learn that in practice than on the street. There's a shot timer app for Android that you can adjust to be sensitive enough to hear the hammer drop on a snap cap if you're in an otherwise silent environment. I'll use it in my basement and as long as the sump pump doesn't kick on its fine. Get your gear broken in, then start putting some time pressure on yourself and see if anything falls apart.

^ I completely agree with this. I don't like the slide mounted safeties that you have to push forward, because it isn't natural, and is another step that you can forget, and most are very stiff (like my PX4, but I only use it as a decocker). I still like shooting 92FS and the like though.

And Tat7, you confound me, because you seem to be saying "I don't think bad of people who use a safety, but at the same time, safeties are inferior garbage". As in the above examples, I agree somewhat, which is why I don't suggest slide mounted safeties, but for 1911-like safeties there is no problem disengaging them naturally (like on my M&P). I'm not trying to tit-for-tat (punny huh ) with you either, just to point out to other people who may be reading this that aren't comfortable without a safety, that they shouldn't feel pressured. At the same time, someone needs to steer them towards a 1911 style frame mounted safety, and teach them the proper two thumbs forward grip, or teach them to use the safety/decocker as a decocker only.

Well, I guess it is still nice to have a safety, even if it is on the slide, if you use it sparingly (like engaging it when showing your firearm off in front of a class LOL, or handling it in other ways). Even a grip safety alone like on the XD can be reassuring. There are safety options out there that work better though. My M&P is near perfect, but I did sand the safety down about 50% because it was really too wide.