How would you have reacted?

[IndyBeerman]

I'd bet that most the people on here that go bonkers don't actually have their hand wrapped around the grip of their pistols when the cash register opens either.

DING,DING, DING, DING

We have a winner!

I could care less if the guy was wearing micro basketball shorts from the 70's, you walk up to a cash register and you have a hand resting on the grip of a firearm. You now have commanded my attention to it's fullest and probably everyone else that did not have their head up their rear or was totally jacked up.

 

[ihateiraq]

DING,DING, DING, DING

We have a winner!

I could care less if the guy was wearing micro basketball shorts from the 70's, you walk up to a cash register and you have a hand resting on the grip of a firearm. You now have commanded my attention to it's fullest and probably everyone else that did not have their head up their rear or was totally jacked up.

if im in an establishment that serves food, and a guy walks in wearing those shorts, armed or unarmed, im leaving.

 

[dburkhead]

Yes, I called you hypocrites. And I mean it. I'm saving this thread... as soon as any one of you say a word elsewhere about "sheeple" or someone else being hassled, I'm going to repost your own words in this thread, where ya'll keep saying that having a gun makes you a suspected criminal.

Sorry, but unless you can show people in this thread making the claim that it was unwarranted for police to pay additional attention to folk who are openly armed, then the claim of hypocrisy is unwarranted. Or perhaps if you can show people in this thread making a claim that nobody who open carries is ever a "bad guy." I don't recall either of those claims ever having been made, however.

If I note that some stranger is armed, that becomes a part of the total "situational awareness." I also note folk who appear to be significantly larger and stronger than me, folk who possess other items usable as weapons that might pose a serious threat "if and when."

It's called "situational awareness." It doesn't mean you expect the person to flip out and start blasting, but in the unlikely event that something does happen, it's helpful in the first "mad minute" to know were potential threats, on the one hand, or potential allies, on the other, are located.

It's the same reason that, when I'm driving down the road, I try to keep track of all the cars around me, but pay particular attention to the big trucks. They may not be more likely to be involved in an accident with me (may even be less likely) but if they are....

As for considering someone with a gun a potential criminal, well, I consider anyone I meet as a "potential criminal." Per US DOJ statistics chances of someone being in prison are about 11% for men and about 2% for women so at least 1 in 20 of random people in the US are or will be criminals. And I'm afraid I just haven't found the right Crackerjack box to get the crimino-detecto glasses that allow one to tell at a glance which people are criminals and which are not.

Yesterday, my family and I went down to Louisville and went to the Science Center museum, we stayed overnight at a hotel (bear with me, I'm coming to a point here), then went to the Louisville Zoo and to the Mega Caverns tour.

Somewhere in all of that, I would be very surprised indeed if I did not encounter one or more actual, bona-fide criminals. I don't know which ones those might have been.

And so I keep an eye on that double rig. The driver may be the most careful driver in the world. Probably is far more skilled and careful than the average civic driver. Chances are, he'll stay in his lane, I'll stay in mine, and everyone will be happy. But maybe, just maybe, he'll come across into my lane and only the fact that I've been keeping an eye out will keep me from being turned into a rather unappetizing form of street pizza.

I don't stare. I don't harass. I don't come up to him and demand identification and proof that he is allowed to carry that gun. I don't tell him "I'm not impressed."I don't tell him that he has to conceal the gun. I don't do any of the things that some law enforcement officers have drawn criticism for doing. I'm just . . . aware. So it's kind of hard to see how a charge of hypocrisy can stand for not doing something folk have criticized others for doing. It would be like a man saying that he believed in monogamy and then calling him a hypocrite because he smiled at a pretty girl.

 

[Agent 007]

.

 

[jsharmon7]

RM-
To answer your OP, I think I would have reacted the same way. I see citizens with guns fairly regularly and don't think anything of it. I do not however see them grip the gun in their front pocket when the cash register opens at a place of business; that would pique my concern as well.

JW-
I completely understand the point you're trying to make about it being hypocritical to see a person with a gun and assume they're up to no good; much the way citizens react when they make the dreaded MWAG call. That, however, is not the case at all in this instance. Seeing a man with a gun in his front pocket didn't bother the author of the OP, he only made a mental note of it. The part that sounded the alarms was when the man gripped the gun when the cash register opened. Furthermore, RM didn't call the police on the man, he only prepared himself for the possibility of foul play. The difference between what you're railing against and what actually happened are night and day. If you reread the OP and weigh his reaction against the totality of the circumstance, you will see the error in your logic.

 

[j706]

Getting back on track here, I guess the real question is what would the original poster had done if the guy at the register had pulled the weapon?

 

[finity]

Is it possible for both sides to be a little 'right' in this case?

RNM has a good point that someone who moves their hand toward a gun as they stand by an open register does bring more attention to themselves for their actions. Not a very smart move. Not illegal, but not smart. The problem is what drew RNM's attention to him in the first place (thuggish clothes) & then in the second (openly carried gun). If neither of those were true would he have been prepared for the 'robbery' that didn't happen?

I can see Joe's side in that people here really do get offended when 'the sheeple' notice that they have a gun & get concerned even to the point of calling the police. The OC threads are filled with those kinds of statements.

We think (& say in these threads) that its ridiculous that the 'sheeple' react that way just because they see a 'law-abiding citizen' with a gun. They don't know your law-abiding. Unless of course you're implying that you really can tell that someone is a criminal by the way they look (profiling) or maybe because they carry a gun.

Going by the its-OK-to-profile mentality, who would you think most likely to be a criminal & therefore zone in on:

Or this guy:

I guess you'd be dead by now, huh?

Situational awareness is important. Full situational awareness is more important. Not just zoning in on the guy who is openly displaying a gun - whether he looks like a thug or not. I think we pretty well agree here that criminals don't usually OC.

If we don't want to be the cause of an unwarranted MWAG call or any heightened attention from the police for simply exercising our Constitutional rights then we need to guard against that in ourselves.

 

[Denny347]

Pay up!!!!!!!!

 

[public servant]

That's one thing about me. You could never accuse me of profiling. I assume everyone has a gun and is a potential mass murderer and I just haven't found the body in the trunk...yet.

But yes...throw a known gun into the mix and the known potential threat level goes up a notch. Anyone who says they don't react the same is either naive, a liar, a fool or a potential dead man.

If that makes me a hypocrite...well...then I'll be the live hypocrite standing when it's all over with. Those that don't will likely be laying dead in a pool of blood because they didn't see the possibility of a threat should things go bad.

 

[Denny347]

Watching their actions is nothing more that situational awareness. I watch everyone I can eyeball when I'm out. Maybe some of us have our ESP working but I do not. Therefore EVERYONE gets a "once over". Nothing wrong with people watching.

Is it possible for both sides to be a little 'right' in this case?

RNM has a good point that someone who moves their hand toward a gun as they stand by an open register does bring more attention to themselves for their actions. Not a very smart move. Not illegal, but not smart.

I can see Joe's side in that people here really do get offended when 'the sheeple' notice that they have a gun & get concerned even to the point of calling the police. The OC threads are filled with those kinds of statements.

We think (& say in these threads) that its ridiculous that the 'sheeple' react that way just because they see a 'law-abiding citizen' with a gun. They don't know your law-abiding. Unless of course you're implying that you really can tell that someone is a criminal by the way they look (profiling) or maybe because they carry a gun.

Going by the its-OK-to-profile mentality, who would you think most likely to be a criminal & therefore zone in on:



Or this guy:



I guess you'd be dead by now, huh?

Situational awareness is important. Full situational awareness is more important. Not just zoning in on the guy who is openly displaying a gun - whether he looks like a thug or not. I think we pretty well agree here that criminals don't usually OC.

If we don't want to be the cause of an unwarranted MWAG call or any heightened attention from the police for simply exercising our Constitutional rights then we need to guard against that in ourselves.

 

[finity]

Watching their actions is nothing more that situational awareness. I watch everyone I can eyeball when I'm out. Maybe some of us have our ESP working but I do not. Therefore EVERYONE gets a "once over". Nothing wrong with people watching.

Watching everybody is not profiling. Its true situational awareness. I wasn't saying anything against people watching. I was just saying I understand Joe's point.

case in fact:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._defense/51347-got_the_cops_called_on_me.html

The OP above was truly offended to the poinrt of going back & confronting the manager with his 'cut up card' because the manager was situationally aware that there was a MWAG in his store & he wanted to see what was going on by following him while he was in his store. He didn't call the police or draw down on him or ask to see a LTCH or badge. He just watched him. & the OP (& those who responded in his support) were offended.

I think that's where Joe is levelling the 'hypocrite' charge.

 

[public servant]

Going by the its-OK-to-profile mentality, who would you think most likely to be a criminal & therefore zone in on:



Or this guy:



I guess you'd be dead by now, huh?

Not if you realize they both have the potential to climb up a church tower and turn any situation into a Texas Tech. You never know what will snap the straw. That's why you treat everyone the same. Sex, race, clothing, hair length, tattoos...none of that matters.

 

[finity]

Not if you realize they both have the potential to climb up a church tower and turn any situation into a Texas Tech. You never know what will snap the straw. That's why you treat everyone the same. Sex, race, clothing, hair length, tattoos...none of that matters.

To some extent I agree that everyone is a potential threat but not everybody can live their lives thinking that every person they see could potentially kill them. I guess its the nature of your job that makes you jaded like that.

Besides like I said if you treat everyone the same its not profiling. Its true situational awareness.

In your post before this you mentioned adding a weapon to the mix. That's true in a volatile situation (that I assume you are in most days) but not in everyday normal life. A person who is OC isn't any more of a threat (& some would argue is less of a threat) than anybody else in your vicinity barring any extenuating circumstances.

 

[GuyRelford]

Yes, I called you hypocrites. And I mean it. I'm saving this thread... as soon as any one of you say a word elsewhere about "sheeple" or someone else being hassled, I'm going to repost your own words in this thread, where ya'll keep saying that having a gun makes you a suspected criminal.

Please show me in the OP where RNM "hassled" the guy with his hand on the grip of his gun. You can't - or anything close to it. So save this thread - it has nothing to do with anyone assuming you are a "suspected criminal" because you have a gun. That's the distinction you either can't or won't understand - that raising your level of awareness (which is totally internal - no one else would even notice) has NOTHING to do with "hassling" someone with a gun or making any other assumptions about them.

 

[public servant]

To some extent I agree that everyone is a potential threat but not everybody can live their lives thinking that every person they see could potentially kill them.

But everyone could...so why not see the potential in it? But I understand your point. I merely disagree.

In your post before this you mentioned adding a weapon to the mix. That's true in a volatile situation but not in everyday normal life.

Because I assume everyone has a gun...it puts me one step ahead of the game. But if I know you have a gun...I now know how you will potentially attempt to kill me. It has nothing to do with OC'ing. I have no problem with that...in fact it gives me an advantage. Because you have shown me your hand.

And while it's true. The average armed robber will not strap a gun on and walk out to do his deed with the gun exposed...but, what is to say that guy standing there in line at Long's isn't thinking about his rent being late...his truck is going to be repossessed because he's 3 payments behind...his old lady is having an affair with the mail man....his kids need new school clothes. And suddenly...*cha-ching*...there lies before him a drawer full of cash. And the only thing standing between him, it and the door are a few people in line....

Jesus....I am paranoid.... But I'm OK with that. Because I see the potential hanging off your belt.

The difference between a good guy and a bad guy is as little as a couple of paychecks...or lack thereof.

 

[Mike G]

RNM,

finity referenced "situational awareness and "full situational awareness" so I'm wondering what you felt like you're full situational awareness was? Were you completely focused on the man who had his hand on the butt of a gun in his pocket, or did you think to start scanning the complete store environment in case he had an accomplice near the entry/exit or other location inside to back him up if this were going to be an actual robbery attempt.
I'm just wondering because you did not go into specifics about the other people inside other than to reference what kind of people you noticed when you entered. I would think that if I noticed the same scenario you did, my next course of action would have been to see if I noticed anyone else inside the store making movements out of the norm. Just curious.

 

[redneckmedic]

Getting back on track here, I guess the real question is what would the original poster had done if the guy at the register had pulled the weapon?

Good question, my "on paper" answer...

Complied with the robbers demands unless he actively or verbally threatened someones life, at that point aim small miss small until the threat is neutralized.

In reality... probably pissed myself right there in the middle of the line wishing I was just another "sheeple" and didn't have to deal with having a solution to the problem but not man enough to use it. Just another pu**y with a gun like all the other hypocrites here.

 

[public servant]

In reality... probably pissed myself right there in the middle of the line wishing I was just another "sheeple" and didn't have to deal with having a solution to the problem but not man enough to use it. Just another pu**y with a gun like all the other hypocrites here.

You realize you can't afford to lose many more "friends"...right?? Watch it...mister...

 

[redneckmedic]

RNM,

finity referenced "situational awareness and "full situational awareness" so I'm wondering what you felt like you're full situational awareness was? Were you completely focused on the man who had his hand on the butt of a gun in his pocket, or did you think to start scanning the complete store environment in case he had an accomplice near the entry/exit or other location inside to back him up if this were going to be an actual robbery attempt.
I'm just wondering because you did not go into specifics about the other people inside other than to reference what kind of people you noticed when you entered. I would think that if I noticed the same scenario you did, my next course of action would have been to see if I noticed anyone else inside the store making movements out of the norm. Just curious.

Good point, It will be nice to get some Monday Morning Quarterbacking here, there is much room for further education. I did do a once over the room didn't see anything that made an impression but then went about my order and paid; the situation lasted about 45 seconds.

 

[Indecision]

Watching everybody is not profiling. Its true situational awareness. I wasn't saying anything against people watching. I was just saying I understand Joe's point.

case in fact:

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo..._defense/51347-got_the_cops_called_on_me.html

The OP above was truly offended to the poinrt of going back & confronting the manager with his 'cut up card' because the manager was situationally aware that there was a MWAG in his store & he wanted to see what was going on by following him while he was in his store. He didn't call the police or draw down on him or ask to see a LTCH or badge. He just watched him. & the OP (& those who responded in his support) were offended.

I think that's where Joe is levelling the 'hypocrite' charge.

I was actually going to post this but you beat me to it. And I wholeheartedly agree. If you are going to carry a gun, you have to deal with the social repercussions, which included people reacting negatively to you having something you could readily kill them with. Part of the responsibility of carrying, especially open, is being professional about the people that do act as the manager. Because you are just giving them more reason to not trust people carrying by acting irrationally.