Hopefully Carry at Purdue in the Future?

[Jeremiah]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGxU9GQ6M_g[/ame] I posted this on the exponets fan page twice now, they keep deleting it.

 

[TMU317]

Does anyone know how "well trained" the police are? I was under the impression that they have a noteworthy incident rate with firearms, as well as fairly minimal pistol training. I was also under the impression that they don't shoot in a crowded enviroment, if at all possible. Simply becuase the risk of shooting an innocent by-stander is so great?

Officers from different departments train differently. I know IMPD officers are required go to the range twice a year. Individual officers are going to have differing levels of experience with a pistol as some officers only go to the range and train twice a year, while others may go to the range on their own time and thus spend more time training with their pistol. An officer who has been on the department for 20 years is going to be more experienced than an officer who has been a police officer for 2 years and had no prior experience with firearms before the academy. As far as shooting in a crowded environment, every situation is different so it is hard to say when an officer will or will not shoot. There have been instances where an officer was being fired on from a suspect moving through someones front yard, and the officer waited until the suspect was no longer in front of the house to return fire. Officers are trained to be very aware of their surroundings and to use sound judgement when deciding to fire at their target. I know nothing about any other departments training programs and have never spoken to an officer from a different department on this issue. I only know what I have learned from conversations with numerious IMPD officers, I am not an officer.

Idk if that answered the question at all...

 

[Jeremiah]

It did, now think about what you said, "Officers are trained to be very aware of their surroundings" this is for liability reasons as much as anything. PUPD, ISP, I highly doubt any police department in the state would risk wounding an innocent by-stander.

 

[TMU317]

When has this evey been an issue off campus? PUPD response time is 2 minutes, how many shootings go on longer than that? think, please, let logic get in the way of emotion, call your local pd, or the indy metro pd, and ask how they would handle an active shooter at a colts game?

First I would like to point out that I am a supporter of carrying on campus. I am not sure what "emotion" you are referring to. As far as responding to an active shooter incident at a colts game, I don't understand what your point is? They still have to identify the threat, before they can eliminate the threat.

When has an active shooter incident ever been an issue off campus? Or when has there ever been an active shooter incident where a civilian was perceived as a threat by responding officers?

The first active shooter incident which lasted more than two minutes that comes to mind took place in August of 2004, and resulted in the death of IPD officer Jake Laird. Officer Timothy Jacob (Jake) Laird, Indianapolis Police Department, Indiana

As far as a citizen being considered a threat, I direct you to this incident
Deputy Sheriff Jason Matthew Baker, Marion County Sheriff's Department, Indiana

The suspects bailed from the vehicle after ambushing Jason, and responding officers arrived on scene and set up a perimeter. I do not clearly remember all the details, but I can ask someone later to refresh my memory. At one point during the search for the suspects, an officer observed a male in plain clothes and opened fire on him believing he was a suspect. Again, I dont clearly remember the details or the circumstances which lead up to this, but I will post them later.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I really think I need to find a way to bribe Kirk Freeman and liberty Sanders into getting involved.

I've heard all it takes is sushi. How can I help?

Yes, but I was referring to an active shooter incident in which an officer arrives on scene and it is still a very "active" situation.

And the police "set up a perimeter" and wait for the killing to stop to hose off the blood and write reports for the prosecutor.

If two people are exchanging gunfire as an officer arrives on scene, and neither one takes a shot at the officer, how then would the officer decide who the GG is and who the BG is and then react to eliminate the threat?

Again, may I please have an example of this happening? Just one.

As well, how do police train to handle this scenario off the campus of Purdue? Certainly given the comprehensive firearms training of the police they are taught how to handle this situation at the mall or other off-campus areas. PUPD should do that then.

How is this the problem that Chief Cox claims? If Chief Cox lacks such faith in the training of his officers I would urge him to disarm his officers immediately.

 

[singlestacksig]

First I would like to point out that I am a supporter of carrying on campus. I am not sure what "emotion" you are referring to. As far as responding to an active shooter incident at a colts game, I don't understand what your point is? They still have to identify the threat, before they can eliminate the threat.

When has an active shooter incident ever been an issue off campus? Or when has there ever been an active shooter incident where a civilian was perceived as a threat by responding officers?

The first active shooter incident which lasted more than two minutes that comes to mind took place in August of 2004, and resulted in the death of IPD officer Jake Laird. Officer Timothy Jacob (Jake) Laird, Indianapolis Police Department, Indiana

As far as a citizen being considered a threat, I direct you to this incident
Deputy Sheriff Jason Matthew Baker, Marion County Sheriff's Department, Indiana

The suspects bailed from the vehicle after ambushing Jason, and responding officers arrived on scene and set up a perimeter. I do not clearly remember all the details, but I can ask someone later to refresh my memory. At one point during the search for the suspects, an officer observed a male in plain clothes and opened fire on him believing he was a suspect. Again, I dont clearly remember the details or the circumstances which lead up to this, but I will post them later.

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/09150603par.pdf

this lists a bystander was injured, but does not say by whom..

 

[Jeremiah]

First I would like to point out that I am a supporter of carrying on campus. I am not sure what "emotion" you are referring to. As far as responding to an active shooter incident at a colts game, I don't understand what your point is? They still have to identify the threat, before they can eliminate the threat.

When has an active shooter incident ever been an issue off campus? Or when has there ever been an active shooter incident where a civilian was perceived as a threat by responding officers?

The first active shooter incident which lasted more than two minutes that comes to mind took place in August of 2004, and resulted in the death of IPD officer Jake Laird. Officer Timothy Jacob (Jake) Laird, Indianapolis Police Department, Indiana

As far as a citizen being considered a threat, I direct you to this incident
Deputy Sheriff Jason Matthew Baker, Marion County Sheriff's Department, Indiana

The suspects bailed from the vehicle after ambushing Jason, and responding officers arrived on scene and set up a perimeter. I do not clearly remember all the details, but I can ask someone later to refresh my memory. At one point during the search for the suspects, an officer observed a male in plain clothes and opened fire on him believing he was a suspect. Again, I dont clearly remember the details or the circumstances which lead up to this, but I will post them later.

On your first point I agree whole heartedly, they have to be able to asses the situation before acting, sorry for an miscommunication.

AS far as your answer to my question, thanks for those links. I am reading them now. Since these have been an issue, I'm sure we could consult those departments and look into the training they have since under gone.

 

[Jeremiah]

I've heard all it takes is sushi. How can I help?



And the police "set up a perimeter" and wait for the killing to stop to hose off the blood and write reports for the prosecutor.



Again, may I please have an example of this happening? Just one.

As well, how do police train to handle this scenario off the campus of Purdue? Certainly given the comprehensive firearms training of the police they are taught how to handle this situation at the mall or other off-campus areas. PUPD should do that then.

How is this the problem that Chief Cox claims? If Chief Cox lacks such faith in the training of his officers I would urge him to disarm his officers immediately.

which sushi resturaunt do you prefer? I hear some of them deliver?

your last suggestion is the type of stuff that I really want to put for public consideration. - If they are in capable of handling the situation, disarm them till they can.

 

[Jeremiah]

Hold your fire, Purdue - Purdue Exponent: Opinions Wow, just wow. Dirty harry.

 

[TMU317]

It did, now think about what you said, "Officers are trained to be very aware of their surroundings" this is for liability reasons as much as anything. PUPD, ISP, I highly doubt any police department in the state would risk wounding an innocent by-stander.

Yes, I understand your point. I guess I should have been more clear. I was referring to an active shooter incident in which the GG(s) and BG(s) are actively engaging each other when a responding officer arrives on scene. If that officer is responding to a report of an active shooter, and as he is investigating the situation he stumbles upon a man/woman that is not a police officer in uniform and is shooting at another person, how is that officer to determine if that individual is a GG or BG? It is possible for that officer, upon observing an individual shooting at someone and believing he/she is a threat to himself or others, to eliminate that threat and ask questions later. I am not saying this is OK or right I am just saying it is a concern. More importantly, I am not using this as an argument againt carrying a firearm nor am I saying that you should not defend yourself in such a situation. I was simply pointing out that this is a legitimate concern for all LEO's.

 

[TMU317]

And the police "set up a perimeter" and wait for the killing to stop to hose off the blood and write reports for the prosecutor.

Again, may I please have an example of this happening? Just one.

As well, how do police train to handle this scenario off the campus of Purdue? Certainly given the comprehensive firearms training of the police they are taught how to handle this situation at the mall or other off-campus areas. PUPD should do that then.

How is this the problem that Chief Cox claims? If Chief Cox lacks such faith in the training of his officers I would urge him to disarm his officers immediately.

In this particular incident, the suspect had fled on foot following the brief chase and the shooting of Deputy Baker. Responding officers set up a perimeter to contain the suspects in the area and began searching for them. Again, I don't clearly remember all of the details. One suspect had fled to a nearby wooded location, and was firing at a police helicoptor circling overhead. At the time, the average beat officer was not armed with more than a .40 cal handgun or a remington 870. They chose to not engage the suspect, who had taken a defensive position at this point, until officers who were better armed to do so arrived on scene. They did not sit back and "wait for the killing to stop to hose off the blood and write reports for the prosecutor."

I don't have an example of an officer arriving to find two people shooting at each other, but I will look into it. Are you saying that if there is no such example, that officers should not be prepared for such a thing to occur?

 

[gunowner930]

When has this evey been an issue off campus? PUPD response time is 2 minutes, how many shootings go on longer than that? think, please, let logic get in the way of emotion, call your local pd, or the indy metro pd, and ask how they would handle an active shooter at a colts game?

There is some logic here regarding DGUs. Most DGUs will not be some Hollywood shootout that lasts several minutes and thousands of rounds. I would think that the biggest concerns on a college campus are s--theads that like to prey on unarmed victims like rapes, robberies, carjackings, etc. Therefore, LEOs wouldn't respond in time to be in a position to distinguish between the BG(s) and the victim(s) anyways.

Virginia Tech is a poor example to justify not allowing firearms on campus. Unfortunately, Cho was very efficient in part because he knew that nobody would return fire. It's easy to defend a classroom with only one door and a firearm or two in the right hands. Things could get a little complicated if you leave that classroom to look for the shooter down an open hallway.

If you're a college student who does not live in a dorm, just carry anyways and keep your mouth shut. As others have said, that is not illegal. If you have to shoot some punk for trying to rob or kill you, then it is better to deal with disciplinary action from the school than to become a statistic.

 

[Water63]

Hold your fire, Purdue - Purdue Exponent: Opinions Wow, just wow. Dirty harry.

My daughter goes to Purdue and was at the meeting last night. She called me on her way home from the meeting and she was in disbelief that people are so uneducated on responsible gun carry. She has her LTCH and can not carry while she attends Purdue. She lives in a dorm so even if this passes she still will not be able to have her gun because they are not allowed in the dorms. The fact that needs brought out is it is not illegal to carry on campus. It is a Purdue rule so someone from IU could be there and have a gun on them. People are quick to try to take the second amendment away what if they were after the 1st amendment. They would be in a uproar if the freedom of speech was infringed. I hope that Purdue sets a presence in the right to carry for their students and staff.

 

[jeremy]

Subscribed!

 

[Jeremiah]

My daughter goes to Purdue and was at the meeting last night. She called me on her way home from the meeting and she was in disbelief that people are so uneducated on responsible gun carry. She has her LTCH and can not carry while she attends Purdue. She lives in a dorm so even if this passes she still will not be able to have her gun because they are not allowed in the dorms. The fact that needs brought out is it is not illegal to carry on campus. It is a Purdue rule so someone from IU could be there and have a gun on them. People are quick to try to take the second amendment away what if they were after the 1st amendment. They would be in a uproar if the freedom of speech was infringed. I hope that Purdue sets a presence in the right to carry for their students and staff.

forbes1@purdue.edu have your daughter email me if she has the time/ or interest in helping.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

In this particular incident, the suspect had fled on foot following the brief chase and the shooting of Deputy Baker.

This was not a campus shooting.

I want one, just one, example of police arriving at the scene of an active shooter on a campus and being perplexed by who is the good guy and who is the bad guy.

Cops stood around at Virginia Tech and Columbine and NIU and lots of other places.

Are you saying that if there is no such example, that officers should not be prepared for such a thing to occur?

Chief Cox's cover story is that this is a concern for his officers and it falls apart like a cardboard suitcase in the rain on cross exam. He is in favor of denying people rights based on an absurd scenario.

It is akin to the silly "what if game" of every martial arts club gets from new students. "What if space aliens were shooting lasers at Alex Jones and but our officers couldn't get to the space aliens as they had to fight Godzilla and Godzilla knew Wing Chun and then . . ."

1. I want an example of this happening.

2. I want to know how PUPD or other police departments train for this scenario. If this is a concern of Chief Cox then obviously PUPD trains for it, right?

3. I want Chief Cox to explain why PUPD cannot simply do on campus for the scenario he describes off campus. If PUPD officers came across Cox's parade of horribles at the Tippecanoe Mall, or the courthouse, or Wabash 9 theatre, or the hookah bar, or wherever, how would they handle this scenario. Do that on campus then.

 

[TMU317]

http://www.in.gov/judiciary/opinions/pdf/09150603par.pdf

this lists a bystander was injured, but does not say by whom..

I could not find the incident report, I seem to have misplaced it. I spoke with an officer who was familiar with the incident, and he confirmed that a civilian was shot and seriously wounded by officers on the scene that night(I believe two officers opened fire). The man who was shot was a security guard in plain clothes, and was armed with a handgun (I believe he was crawling on the ground at the time of the incident). The officers observed this man within the perimeter, in plain clothes holding a firearm, and opened fire on him believing he was a suspect (There were multiple suspects...three suspects were later arrested and a fourth was fatally wounded during a subsequent gun battle) involved in the shooting of Jason Baker.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The man who was shot was a security guard in plain clothes, and was armed with a handgun (I believe he was crawling on the ground at the time of the incident). The officers observed this man within the perimeter, in plain clothes holding a firearm, and opened fire on him believing he was a suspect

The security guard was exchanging fire with the suspects???

 

[singlestacksig]

I could not find the incident report, I seem to have misplaced it. I spoke with an officer who was familiar with the incident, and he confirmed that a civilian was shot and seriously wounded by officers on the scene that night(I believe two officers opened fire). The man who was shot was a security guard in plain clothes, and was armed with a handgun (I believe he was crawling on the ground at the time of the incident). The officers observed this man within the perimeter, in plain clothes holding a firearm, and opened fire on him believing he was a suspect (There were multiple suspects...three suspects were later arrested and a fourth was fatally wounded during a subsequent gun battle) involved in the shooting of Jason Baker.

if the cops shot the bystander, they made an error.. A understandable one but still an error..

 

[Kirk Freeman]

If the cops shot a bystander then it bolsters my call to disarm the police for everyone's safety.