Homeless man shot to death by police while “illegally camping” in NM foothills

[nakinate]

Maybe I misunderstood the video.

Looked to me like he was turning around and headed towards the ground before they shot at him.

And yes, little knives. I say this to point out the fact that he had 3 rifles trained on him at close range and he was a long ways away from the nearest cop holding knives with zero reach. There was no real threat.

And this is why I won't judge the cops and let the DA sort it out. Video is not always conclusive, and I believe this is a good example of that.

 

[steveh_131]

Watch the video again, guys.

"Keep your word. I'll keep mine. I'm not gonna harm you. We're gonna walk outta here. I'm not gonna harm you."

"do it."

BANG. Grenade. here comes the dog.

He pulls the knives and stands there. Then he quite clearly turns around and crouches towards the ground before they open fire.

 

[SumtnFancy]

You don't know us.

Then maybe you are in the half who wouldn't.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

And yes, little knives. I say this to point out the fact that he had 3 rifles trained on him at close range and he was a long ways away from the nearest cop holding knives with zero reach. There was no real threat.

Again, how many thrusts from the little knives should anyone take? No threat? Must we play the Tueller Drill videos? Despite Boyd's obvious love of carbs, he could have been on top of the officer faster than one can shout "I'm going to hunt you down and kill you." The threat was Boyd committing Aggravated Assault.

The middle cop shot Boyd with bean bag rounds, the front cop shot thrice with an AR. Yet Boyd still holds the weapons

 

[rambone]

The purpose of a flashbang is to impair the senses, so you can forget about being able to issue commands 1-3 seconds after exploding that bomb in someone's face.

So there he is, with impaired vision, impaired hearing, and impaired mental faculties.... "ignoring" the unintelligible shrieking of the officers. His fate was sealed as soon as that grenade was tossed.

 

[nakinate]

The purpose of a flashbang is to impair the senses, so you can forget about being able to issue commands 1-3 seconds after exploding that bomb in someone's face.

So there he is, with impaired vision, impaired hearing, and impaired mental faculties.... "ignoring" the unintelligible shrieking of the officers. His fate was sealed as soon as that grenade was tossed.

His fate was sealed after three hours of making threats against the officer's lives and not removing himself from someone else's property. There were a string of bad decisions by Boyd that led up to this.

 

[steveh_131]

Video: Camper turning from officers when shot | ABQJournal Online

But before that, there appeared to be a chance he’d cooperate, according to video released by APD on Friday. “All right, don’t change up the agreement,” Boyd says, as officers have their guns trained on him. “I’m going to try to walk with you.” Boyd picks up his backpack and belongings, and he looks ready to start walking. There are no knives in his hands at this point. “Do it!” an officer says on the video.

A flash-bang device is thrown at Boyd’s feet, disorienting him. Officers yell at him to get on the ground, and a dog and officer approach him. Boyd takes two knives out of his pockets and appears to wave them. Then Boyd starts turning away from the officers. That’s when shots ring out and he hits the ground. Officers continue to yell at him to drop the knives. “Please don’t hurt me anymore. I can’t move,” Boyd says as he lies on the ground.

 

[steveh_131]

Again, how many thrusts from the little knives should anyone take? No threat? Must we play the Tueller Drill videos? Despite Boyd's obvious love of carbs, he could have been on top of the officer faster than one can shout "I'm going to hunt you down and kill you." The threat was Boyd committing Aggravated Assault.

Don't prop up another straw man. I didn't say that anyone 'should take thrusts from little knives'. I pointed out that from 15 feet away on rocky uneven terrain holding weapons with no reach and with multiple rifles trained on him, he was no threat at all.

The middle cop shot Boyd with bean bag rounds, the front cop shot thrice with an AR. Yet Boyd still holds the weapons

You said yourself it may have been a spinal shot. And while they were shooting him with bean bags and the dog was gnawing on his leg he was even trying to tell them he couldn't move to release them.

 

[Denny347]

Denny, is this what you would have done? Amidst a sea of obvious intellectuals throwing up anarchy straw-men, you are usually a voice of reason.

If this man picked up his bags and walked toward you to cooperate, would have have tossed a grenade at him and had the dog attack?

Would you have shot him in the back when he was turning away and crouching towards the ground?

I'm conflicted. We operate on different laws/regulations than they do out there obviously and I do not have access to the 3 hours prior to this that COULD impact the "reasonableness" of this shoot per the Graham V Connor ruling. However, I do not see us handling this scenario the same way. Generally, we are not allowed to deploy K9s for misdemeanor offenses...generally. Flashbangs are SWAT only and if SWAT was there then so is our negotiators. Between both of them, they have access to more tools than I do to resolve this w/o bloodshed. Flashbanging did not give him the "right" to pull 2 knives and is not a foreseeable result of their either. It is extremely disorienting so I understand the reasoning behind using it. However, it did not appear to work nor did it appear that they had a plan after it was deployed. We did not see the footage where the beanbag rounds were used, the Chief stated they were deployed so if they were it was prior to the available video. However, why were beanbags deployed? Why the initial standoff? According to the video, the knives did not come out until AFTER the flashbang. Is it possible that the 3 hours prior contain a CRITICAL piece? Yes. I cannot comment on the what the officer saw who fired first. It's a different angle and could look completely different than what the helmet cam showed. Having said that, if I was to make ANY judgement here, it would be that if I was in the second officer's shoes (the one with the camera), I would likely have not fired based solely on the sight picture presented in the video. His fire SEEMED to be "sympathetic" fire and we teach AGAINST that. It can be explained, shooting a person in the back, but it is not a battle I would want to fight if I can choose to avoid it. The shooting I was involved it, the officer firing the shot saw something that justified it. I was at a different angle with my rifle and did not see what he saw, so I did not fire. Let's be clear though, the only REAL indication of his capitulation would have been to drop the knives he was holding in each hand. Without doing that, a reasonable person would not have believed he was "surrendering".

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I pointed out that from 15 feet away on rocky uneven terrain holding weapons with no reach and with multiple rifles trained on him, he was no threat at all.

We have to play the Teuller Drills videos apparently.

Too close - dont underestimate the knife - YouTube

21 foot Rule Tested - YouTube

You said yourself it may have been a spinal shot.

I think it is likely a spinal shot that would produce that effect, IME only, not a medical opinion.

 

[churchmouse]

 

[Denny347]

You don't really have to speculate. You can see it and hear it from the exact perspective of the shooter.

He was laying down on the ground to surrender. That much is clear. I think his bullet-riddled body was having a hard time moving his hands to let go of the little knives.

He was surrendering, both verbally and physically. Why argue for 3 hours and then escalate things as soon as he finally de-escalates them!? It makes absolutely no sense.

Knives,guns...if they are still in the suspect's hands when they fall we must very VERY careful when approaching them. The danger has not passed just because they are on the ground. They still posses the tools but what is unknown is do they posses the ability. Use caution but make no assumptions.

 

[steveh_131]

We have to play the Teuller Drills videos apparently.

From your video:

Testing the 21 ft rule. The FBI study that said that at minimum 21 feet is needed to draw a pistol and shoot a charging attacker and not be stabbed. We test 21 feet 5 times and 11 feet once.

You think he could cross 15 rocky feet on a mountain and kill a man with a pocketknife before 3 men could pull their triggers on their already aimed rifles?

There was no real threat.

 

[Denny347]

The purpose of a flashbang is to impair the senses, so you can forget about being able to issue commands 1-3 seconds after exploding that bomb in someone's face.

So there he is, with impaired vision, impaired hearing, and impaired mental faculties.... "ignoring" the unintelligible shrieking of the officers. His fate was sealed as soon as that grenade was tossed.

I agree 100% that they did not seem to have a plan. Flashbang needs to be used with a plan, not just thrown and hope for the best.

 

[Denny347]

I know, right? Only cops should be able to criticize the actions of other cops.

Of course not. While I have/do wear both hats (that of my days before becoming an LEO and now current LEO) I understand both viewpoints and hope to show the reasoning that leads us to actions that otherwise are misunderstood.

 

[Denny347]

From your video:



You think he could cross 15 rocky feet on a mountain and kill a man with a pocketknife before 3 men could pull their triggers on their already aimed rifles?

There was no real threat.

Actually, the K9 officer appeared to be 5-7ft from the suspect when he pulled the knives. That is danger close.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I'm going to have to go back and watch the video closer, when I have time. There seems to be 2 conflicting views on what transpired. And each view seems certain of what they saw.

 

[evsnova74]

From your video:

"Testing the 21 ft rule. The FBI study that said that at minimum 21 feet is needed to draw a pistol and shoot a charging attacker and not be stabbed. We test 21 feet 5 times and 11 feet once."

You think he could cross 15 rocky feet on a mountain and kill a man with a pocketknife before 3 men could pull their triggers on their already aimed rifles?

There was no real threat.

I guess I was correct in my first post to this thread, at least in regard to drawing the pistol being part of the drill. Maybe I should have taken the 2 seconds needed to actually look it up.

 

[steveh_131]

Actually, the K9 officer appeared to be 5-7ft from the suspect when he pulled the knives. That is danger close.

Looked like way more than that, to me. We'll never know for certain. And the K9 officer put himself that close for no apparent reason.

None of this makes any sense.

 

[Denny347]

Looked like way more than that, to me. We'll never know for certain. And the K9 officer put himself that close for no apparent reason.

None of this makes any sense.

Again, I do not know their laws/rules but the dog was sent prior to the knives. The officer followed his dog to the suspect, the K9's won't release on command alone generally so if the dog got a hold of the suspect, the handler will have to be right there. After the suspect was down, we would not likely send the dog to a suspect still armed. That could easily end with getting the dog hurt/killed.