Home defense shotgun questions

[SemperFiUSMC]

That is true of any gun used inside. I have shot 12 gauge, 9mm and .45 in a closet sized space in the dark, I wore hearing and eye protection. Even so, the pressure felt was enormous.

That is one reason why I keep both ear and eye pro by my bed, on my dresser, at the other end of my house, in the basement, in my garage, in my truck and all my go bags.

You can spin a million directions on any shoot scenario but the reality is half the time you may end up going outside, you may end up in the basement or garage. You do not control the situation.

A gun at night without a light is risky and can even be a legal liability.

Operating a pump shotgun to the best of your ability with a handheld light in your weakhand is BS. That is bad advice. That is plain and simple and easy to debate. The OP asked about shotguns and what to put on them.

Do you have eyes and ears for your wife? Kids? Dogs? Do you have a family password that tells them all to don their protective equipment because the range is going hot?

I'm not a huge fan of lights at night. We learned something very important in the Marine Corps. If they can see you they can kill you. A light on the end of a weapon in an otherwise dark area is a beacon to shoot at. $400 NV goggles are awesome and don't give up your position. I know they do it differently on CSI but in the real world you don't get cancelled until next season when we found out it was just a dream sequence.

IMHO the OP asked the wrong question. And my previous challenge stands. Pull the trigger on a shotgun in a very small dark area and see if you can follow up just with one single shot, let alone track a fleeing individual with the wherewithall for a followup on target shot. Unless you train for it you can't do it, unless you're wearing protective equipment or you're Helen Keller.

Just to be clear....
Shotgun for HD = Hollywood
Dual suppressed pistols for HD = legitimate



I think someone trying to fight with two pistols will be more of a danger than the concussive effects of a shotgun, but I'll grant you suppressors, in the form a pistol caliber carbine, anyways.

That's not what I said. Being able to whip off a string of rounds from a shotgun successively in an enclosed area in the dark either requires protective equipment, lots of training, or a Hollywood sound stage. Suppressed weapons eliminate the flashbang effect.

 

[DRob]

Holy cow

"The OP asked the wrong question"!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are no wrong questions but there are always plenty of answers to a question which wasn't asked.

 

[lovemachine]

Let's hit the range sometime and you can try some of mine.

I'll take you up on that. Anytime on a weekend is good for me.

 

[paperboy]

I think a flashlight is a good idea as well as ghost ring sights and a side saddle. I personally dont care for pistol grip only, I can handle a shotgun much better with a full stock. I don't think you have to put a ton of money into a shotty to make it useful. I have even seen heat shields with the ghost rings on them for $20. I personally like Mossbergs because of where the slide release and safety is mounted. I can operate them without really changing my grip.

 

[lovemachine]

I asked the wrong question?

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want a light on their HD weapon.

The $400 NV goggles would be pretty awesome to have...

Do you have eyes and ears for your wife? Kids? Dogs? Do you have a family password that tells them all to don their protective equipment because the range is going hot?

I'm not a huge fan of lights at night. We learned something very important in the Marine Corps. If they can see you they can kill you. A light on the end of a weapon in an otherwise dark area is a beacon to shoot at. $400 NV goggles are awesome and don't give up your position. I know they do it differently on CSI but in the real world you don't get cancelled until next season when we found out it was just a dream sequence.

IMHO the OP asked the wrong question. And my previous challenge stands. Pull the trigger on a shotgun in a very small dark area and see if you can follow up just with one single shot, let alone track a fleeing individual with the wherewithall for a followup on target shot. Unless you train for it you can't do it, unless you're wearing protective equipment or you're Helen Keller.



That's not what I said. Being able to whip off a string of rounds from a shotgun successively in an enclosed area in the dark either requires protective equipment, lots of training, or a Hollywood sound stage. Suppressed weapons eliminate the flashbang effect.

 

[DRob]

Nope

I asked the wrong question?

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want a light on their HD weapon.

The $400 NV goggles would be pretty awesome to have...

You didn't ask the wrong question. You asked a valid question. Your question just didn't fit the answer somebody wanted to provide. Rather than just quoting him, I should have used the "quote" feature in my response.

I do have a Streamlight clamped to the barrel and magazine tube of my Mossberg 500. I like the set up a lot.

Yeah, NV goggles would be cool but I question the practicality of trying to put them on while confronting a threat in your home. Heck, I wouldn't try to take the time to put my glasses on.

 

[rhino]

I asked the wrong question?

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want a light on their HD weapon.

The $400 NV goggles would be pretty awesome to have...

You didn't ask any wrong questions.

Your confusion as to why someone wouldn't want a light on their home defense weapon is logical, because you should and you already know that.

Those who suggest that lights for defensive use are a bad idea may not understand how to use them effectively. Furthermore, the needs of a military combatant do not always match those of a civilian who has completely different rules of engagement and who lacks a cadre of colleagues to complement his capabilities.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I asked the wrong question?

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want a light on their HD weapon.

The $400 NV goggles would be pretty awesome to have...

What I meant was that you are asking what to put on the shotgun you plan to use for home defense, rather than what weapon should you select, and which accessories should you install on that weapon, that you want to use primarily for home defense. I am saying I don't believe that a shotgun is the best weapon for home defense for the reasons I've previously stated. I believe that at its core it's a bad decision to select a shotgun as your primary HD weapon. I thought I made that clear.

Firing one round with unprotected ears from a 12 guage in a confined space will permanently damage your hearing and those in the room with you. You will also in effect generate a flashbang that will stun you for a few seconds, giving an attacker an opportunity to gain an upper hand. How do I know these things? Personal experience.

I used to keep a Mossberg 500 for HD. Now I use 2 suppressed 9mm pistols with a total of 32 rounds before reloading. I'm now quicker, quieter, have more total firepower before reloading, and I can engage more targets than I could before. I would leave another pistol with my GF and tell her to take cover and shoot anything that walks through the doorway. We've planned and executed the plan, which is quite honestly far more important than what weapon you choose.

You didn't ask any wrong questions.

Your confusion as to why someone wouldn't want a light on their home defense weapon is logical, because you should and you already know that.

Those who suggest that lights for defensive use are a bad idea may not understand how to use them effectively. Furthermore, the needs of a military combatant do not always match those of a civilian who has completely different rules of engagement and who lacks a cadre of colleagues to complement his capabilities.

Yeah, I don't know anything about tactics.

I am not a fan of placing a bullet homing beacon on the front of my home defense weapon alerting an attacker to my presence before I can see them. Placing myself in the pirate seat for a moment, If I saw a light beam coming around a corner, I would not flee. Rather, I would take cover and shoot at the light as soon as it entered the room. If I was really concerned about being able to "see" I would either turn the lights on thereby evening the odds or use NV goggles tipping them in my favor.

Would that I were an LEO or still in the military clearing a room with others, my concern would dissipate as there would be multiple overlapping streams of light; you would have someone covering your entry and exit from a room; and oh yeah I would have level IV body armor and a kpot. Hell, if I didn't have to clean it up or live in it after I might even toss a flashbang, smoke or gas grenade before entry. But I gotta clean up whatever mess I create. In other words I would be totally prepared to assault the room. In the military we used NV, and they were the most effective tool available as they allowed you to see while depriving the BG of that ability. In either of these instances you don't just bop from room to room with your flashlight on, which is what 99% of people would do, setting themselves up to be shot by an intruder.

Now in my case I have two dogs who bark at one of my kids when he takes a break from his XBox and comes out of his room to reload his cheese whiz. They would bark at an intruder and probably send them to the next house. In the event they remained, I have a well laid out plan on how to clear my house that I would execute in the middle of the night in complete darkness that does not including painting a lighted target on my forehead.

 

[IndianaResident]

There is such a thing as a light with a pressure switch, and just like a PEQ laser, it is only turned on to employ the weapon. A weapon light should be for disorienting targets or flashing a room, and not locked on for a search.
NVG's are a nice option if
A) you can afford them
B) the BG doesn't have a flashlight
C) no one turns on any lights
D) no one shoots back at you

Moreover, that 40 degree window is pretty narrow for someone clearing a house alone.

In either case, if that works for you, go for it.

The other factor at play here is that many want something--one thing--they can grab and adequately defend home and hearth. The proposed system of two hands full of pistol, plus the Halo (?) NVG rig, and maybe a warbelt of reloads and holster and flashlights, is just a lot of stuff. Busy can be good, but for those looking for straight forward home defense option, a single platform is probably a better option.
Finally, the oft toted sound of a shotgun racking and the explosive blast is fully half the reason they are so often chosen....scaring the intruder out is surviving, and surviving is still winning.

As far as the power of a 12g, well, its a double edged sword for sure, but light recoil loads or a 20g can mitigate that to some extend.

 

[BulkAmmo]

Either a standard 870 or 500 would be a good start.

A light isn't a bad idea. It's a bit hard to maneuver a long gun and a flashlight at the same time.

Mag extensions are a double edge sword. Depending on how your house is built I tend to prefer a smaller overall firearm for the home.

Side saddles are good since you aren't likely to grab ammo.

__________________
bulk 12 ga ammo

 

[rugertoter]

Flash light attachment is a must.

I agree with that. I also prefer the pistol grip and spare five round shell holder attached to the reciever. JMHO. Oh yeah, a short 18" barrel is best to work with in tight spaces too.

 

[451_Detonics]

I don't understand why somebody wouldn't want a light on their HD weapon.

Because they are bullet magnets. What makes you think when the bad guy hears you moving in the house he isn't going to find cover and dump a mag off in the direction of that flashlight which is inline with your body.

A shotgun is not the weapon to clear a house with anyway, it is a defensive weapon for use from a barricaded position. If you feel the need to clear the house the handgun is a much better choice. Rather than a flashlight I can turn on a bright light in every room of the house (except the room I am in) with the push of a single button. That alone will make most BGs flee. And if it doesn't they will be nicely backlit when they pass in front of the bedroom door.

 

[iChokePeople]

A shotgun is not the weapon to clear a house with anyway, it is a defensive weapon for use from a barricaded position. If you feel the need to clear the house the handgun is a much better choice. Rather than a flashlight I can turn on a bright light in every room of the house (except the room I am in) with the push of a single button. That alone will make most BGs flee. And if it doesn't they will be nicely backlit when they pass in front of the bedroom door.

I'd submit that the best one is the one YOU run best, shoot best, are most comfy with, and with which you can deal with the situations YOUR house will present. I've cleared buildings. Lots of them. In most cases I'd choose an m4. If I had to clear MY house *at night* (since the flashlight thing is so prevalent here), my first choice would be a shotgun. I'd submit that most people can become marginally proficient at point/snap shooting a shotgun at house distances with less time and training than handguns or carbines, and most people will not spend the time, effort and money to become even marginally proficient with a handgun. In a normal-sized house, I have a hard time thinking of any situation in which my first choice would be a handgun. I think a handgun is something you choose only because your primary gun is unavailable, for whatever reason (npe, broken, whatever).

But ymmv.

 

[the1kidd03]

extra mag tube and 18" barrel should not be negotiable....18" is more maneuverable and extra rounds is a matter of better safe than sorry.....as for the flashlight or any other light device which is visible...if the BG has ANY common sense, the lights give your position away which makes you more vulnerable if he knows where you are and you do not know where he is....beyond the barrel and tube everything else is just a matter of appearance/opinion...there is seldom a tactical advantage provided by anything else given the situation that it will be used in

 

[Ceejus]

let me preface this by saying, i have no military or police experience, so my views may or may not be wort a hoot to some of you. the one firearm i have not heard mentioned on this thread is the Taurus Judge. a Mossberg 500 persuader was my main HD piece until i got the Judge. i keep it loaded with Winchester PDX1's. to me, this is a good HD piece. easy to move around with, plenty of stopping power and easy to handle (even for my wife). any thoughts on my choice of HD gun?

 

[roscott]

Everyone seems to ignore the fact that simply because you have a light on your gun does not mean you immediately "light it up" as soon as you hear a bump in the night.

With a light, you have the OPTION to illuminate the situation, or you can keep it off. I like options. I could throw out numerous scenarios where using a light could keep you from killing the wrong person, but your imaginations are clearly as vivid as mine...

Other than a light, I have a side saddle shell carrier, and it works great. (Takes some practice to load shells under pressure, however. Just ask the Atlanta Shotgun competition guys.)

Or you could just get dual suppressed pistols. Clearly a Boondock Saints fan.

 

[the1kidd03]

let me preface this by saying, i have no military or police experience, so my views may or may not be wort a hoot to some of you. the one firearm i have not heard mentioned on this thread is the Taurus Judge. a Mossberg 500 persuader was my main HD piece until i got the Judge. i keep it loaded with Winchester PDX1's. to me, this is a good HD piece. easy to move around with, plenty of stopping power and easy to handle (even for my wife). any thoughts on my choice of HD gun?

It's ok. It is maneuverable (so long as you know how to properly clear your house), it will be effective. I think you would be better off with some form of a home defense .410 round than the pistol round. Being on point won't be as crucial with the shotgun round and the pistol ammo you mentioned being approved by the FBI means that it meets their minimum standards. That means it could penetrate too much for comfort in your own home. It could go through the guy and into the next room. It's a big what if, but still a reasonable concern. The downside to the .410 is that it is effective at a shorter range, but should be plenty for in the home.

 

[the1kidd03]

Everyone seems to ignore the fact that simply because you have a light on your gun does not mean you immediately "light it up" as soon as you hear a bump in the night.

With a light, you have the OPTION to illuminate the situation, or you can keep it off. I like options. I could throw out numerous scenarios where using a light could keep you from killing the wrong person, but your imaginations are clearly as vivid as mine...

Other than a light, I have a side saddle shell carrier, and it works great. (Takes some practice to load shells under pressure, however. Just ask the Atlanta Shotgun competition guys.)

Or you could just get dual suppressed pistols. Clearly a Boondock Saints fan.

Yes, they can be a good tool in the right hands. But when posting online you must assume that people are not tactically trained experts and so knowing NOT to leave the light on continuously is not something everyone would think of. For the beginner without training, it would not be a recommended tool. If you know how to effectively utilize it, then by all means it becomes a matter of personal preference.

 

[Ceejus]

It's ok. It is maneuverable (so long as you know how to properly clear your house), it will be effective. I think you would be better off with some form of a home defense .410 round than the pistol round. Being on point won't be as crucial with the shotgun round and the pistol ammo you mentioned being approved by the FBI means that it meets their minimum standards. That means it could penetrate too much for comfort in your own home. It could go through the guy and into the next room. It's a big what if, but still a reasonable concern. The downside to the .410 is that it is effective at a shorter range, but should be plenty for in the home.

the PDX1 rounds i keep it loaded with are indeed the .410 HD rounds, not .45LC. i should have specified. i too am concerned with the rounds penetrating the walls and accidentally harming an innocent person, which is why i chose the .410 rounds. i have plenty of things that shoot bullets, but at 3am when i'm woken from a dead sleep, i'm not going to be too accurate with something that fires a single projectile, i'm afraid.

 

[the1kidd03]

good choice then, just as long as the range isn't too great.....typical .410's are around 1100fps in a shotgun barrel so out of a 3" barrel it is going to be greatly reduced and the pattern will be greatly affected as well.....but it'll serve its purpose definitely