Hey you Appendix Carry Guys....

[cosermann]

In the case of the picture the mouth of the leather hosted was soft and curled in on itself. The holster got caught in the trigger of a Glock pistol. The gun worked as it should, the bolster failed. There is a picture in another thread around here.

Here - SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges! : ITS Tactical

... If you can't disarm a thumb safety on the draw under pressure, then perhaps guns aren't for you.
...

Happens routinely in competition, to say nothing of the stress of a life or death situation.

Having both a "safety" lever and a grip "safety" wasn't enough for Tex Grebner. [Edit: added smiley face.]

 

[lovemachine]

This is why I have a thumb safety on my M&P.

I work in an ER guys, I know the risks. I have thumb safeties (or grip) on all of my guns.
If you can't disarm a thumb safety on the draw under pressure, then perhaps guns aren't for you.
If you manage to shoot yourself in the leg with a thumb stafety and proper holster, then you did something grossly stupid.

Perhaps the guys you see in the ER are morons.

Or perhaps anyone who requires a safety on their gun should get quality training and stop being afraid of their gun.

 

[AD Marc]

I've worked in EMS for over a decade. The only people I've seen accidentally shoot themselves as a result of their carry method were carrying without holsters or not observing basic safety fundamentals. A gun disabler is not a substitute for safe handling.

 

[AJBB87]

My experience with AIWB:

I only carry AIWB when I have to [absolutely] be concealed. Usually at events where I know they say "lift up your shirt" or do a pat around the waist.

This method, for me at least, is a "find cover first, then draw" kind of method. When I draw, I pull the whole holster, and then remove the gun from it.

I carry a Sig P238 HD w/o the 7 round pinky ext. mag. The gun is carried cocked and locked. The holster is at my 1'oclock and the tip of the 238's beavertail is right at the top of my belt.

The holster is a moddified leather Uncle mike's or something (don't remember). It has a simple clip that goes infront of the belt.

My truck is a manual transmission and there's no issues for me.

 

[Aaron1776]

Perhaps the guys you see in the ER are morons.

Or perhaps anyone who requires a safety on their gun should get quality training and stop being afraid of their gun.

Some are indeed morons. Some are not.
The idea that well trained people don't make mistakes, holster's don't grow fingers, shirts don't grab triggers, etc is a fantasy.

#(&% Happens.

And excuse me if I like having the ability to thumb safety a weapon, thereby disabling it, and put it in its own pocket of a gym bag. Or should I start strapping my M&P on while lifting weights at the gym so I can get kicked out?

Here - SAFETY WARNING! Worn Leather Holsters Can Cause Accidental Discharges! : ITS Tactical



Happens routinely in competition, to say nothing of the stress of a life or death situation.

Having both a "safety" lever and a grip "safety" wasn't enough for Tex Grebner. [Edit: added smiley face.]

You'll have to excuse me of I don't count competition guys as being remotely prepared for a fight.

Competitions are fun and training for them help you hit better. That's about it. Mentally speaking, training for one gives you next to nothing for a violent encounter.

I've worked in EMS for over a decade. The only people I've seen accidentally shoot themselves as a result of their carry method were carrying without holsters or not observing basic safety fundamentals. A gun disabler is not a substitute for safe handling.

That's true, safe handling trumps all. But again the idea that trained people don't have NDs, stuff doesn't get into holsters, etc is a fantasy.

And if thumb safeties are so bad and fail so often, why is the AR-15 still regarded as an excellent gun fighting weapon?

And I guess Delta Force, Marine Recon, FBI SWAT, and the HRT had better stop using 1911s since everyone knows that under stress you'll lose the ability to flip a safety that disarms itself by merely using the proper thumbs forward grip and you'll get killed by the BG.

Guys, don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid to carry a thumb safety-less weapon. But considering I routinely use AR-15s, 1911s, etc., not having a thumb safety bugs the hell out of me, and it doesn't make sense to not have training be congruous.
Considering I've never failed to drop the safety in FoF or live fire sims, and no man I've known who has actually killed in a gunfight told me it was a bad idea, I'm going to call BS on this little theory that they're somehow unsafe.

EDIT: Yes I know some trainers don't recommend it. Still haven't heard of that epidemic of the well trained men failing to disengage his safety and getting killed because of it.
In fact I haven't even seen the anecdotal evidence.

Now if you want to make the argument that you go by the PHILOSOPHY of making things as simple as possible, and that you think that philosophy is best for X reasons, then I'll respect your argument. But give up the B@#(&% theory that somehow people can't train to that level of proficiency with a thumb safety. People do it all of the time, and have been doing it for over 100 years now.

 

[HoughMade]

Carry with a thumb safety or not- your choice.

I have them on my 2 M&Ps. However the idea that a safety makes a gun or shooter less safe? People put all kinds of parts to lower the trigger pull weight of their striker fired guns to the neighborhood of standard 1911 pulls (with 1911s having an additional grip safety) and NO ONE calls a 1911 inherently unsafe because it has a manual safety (well, 2 of them).

If "finger off the trigger" is the only "safety" we need, why the trigger lever (or hinged trigger) on the striker fired guns?

Do I think striker fired pistols w/o manual safeties are unsafe? NO.

Do I think manual safeties make guns more unsafe? Insane- of course not.

Are people with manual safeties inherently undertrained? NO.

...and by the way, I have a healthy respect for the fact that my guns can easily take a life (in my hands of someone else's) and that does not make me, or anyone else, "scared of their guns."

 

[cedartop]

.
.

And if thumb safeties are so bad and fail so often, why is the AR-15 still regarded as an excellent gun fighting weapon?

And I guess Delta Force, Marine Recon, FBI SWAT, and the HRT had better stop using 1911s since everyone knows that under stress you'll lose the ability to flip a safety that disarms itself by merely using the proper thumbs forward grip and you'll get killed by the BG.

.
Considering I've never failed to drop the safety in FoF or live fire sims, and never run into a man who has actually harmed another human being tell me that it wasn't a good idea, I'm going to call BS on this little theory that they're somehow unsafe.

I've done violence to other human beings. I know how caveman you become. I've never become THAT caveman.

Aaron, my biggest problem with the analogy of the AR15 and the special units that you mention, is that by and large those are proactive situations. I am not anti-safety, if you choose or are issued a weapon with a safety, it will work as long as you put in the time to master it. Much like those who carry with an empty chamber and plan on racking it at the moment of truth, but have only practiced it a few dozen times, don't plan on remembering your safety unless you put in the required number of reps for neuro pathway programming.

I have not seen people fail to disengage their safetys in FOF. That is because, fankly those in our FOF classes typically don't use pistols with safetys. I have however seen MANY students fail to remember their thumb safety or properly depress the grip safety in live fire.

eta. Not sure how this turned into a thread on the merits of safeties.

 

[Aaron1776]

Aaron, my biggest problem with the analogy of the AR15 and the special units that you mention, is that by and large those are proactive situations. I am not anti-safety, if you choose or are issued a weapon with a safety, it will work as long as you put in the time to master it. Much like those who carry with an empty chamber and plan on racking it at the moment of truth, but have only practiced it a few dozen times, don't plan on remembering your safety unless you put in the required number of reps for neuro pathway programming.

I have not seen people fail to disengage their safetys in FOF. That is because, fankly those in our FOF classes typically don't use pistols with safetys. I have however seen MANY students fail to remember their thumb safety or properly depress the grip safety in live fire.

eta. Not sure how this turned into a thread on the merits of safeties.

Hahaha I helped thread jack my own thread.
Senarios with the special units however are not always proactive. Those guys get bushwhacked too. And guys carrying AR type weapons get surprised all of the time or attacked in their sleep. (See Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc) Just like guys with 1911s get surprised here at home and use their guns effectively without issue.

So long as they train. Just like with any other gun.

I completely agree with you with the training however. You must train to your gun, and you must program that "muscle memory". I always ask people how much they will realistically train when they ask me what weapon to buy. If they're only going to train to a survival level, then I recommend weapons with zero external safeties on them. Where I get cross with people is this BS argument that it's not possible to get to that level of proficiency. That's not only a narrow minded thing to say, but it's also completely unsupported by the historical evidence.

My guess is that these trainers who don't recommend them are taking the completely realistic view that their students probably arent going to practice a lot at home, thus they tell them to use glocks and M&Ps. I can respect that a lot. Being realistic about your students is key to giving good training. But to apply that to the rest of us who do practice pisses me off and is rather insulting. The only reason I only got two practice sessions in last week was because I buried my gpa. Otherwise it's the rare week that I don't do 3-6 practice sessions. (Usually somewhere in between rarely less than 4) Given 10-20 reps a minute, half an hour each session, 4 sessions a week, that's 4,800 - 9,600 repetitions a month.
The SAS found it takes about 2100? (can't remember the exact number, around 2,000) repetitions to create the neural pathway you need. After that you have to maintain.

Also it always astounds me to hear that people fail to disengage grip safeties. Under stress there is no reason someone with a normal human hand shouldn't be gripping the gun so tight that it doesn't work. My personal theory is that those people have funny shaped hands that don't allow them to properly depress the safety. If that's the case, they need to sell their gun and buy a glock or M&P

 

[David Rose]

Guys, don't get me wrong. I'm not afraid to carry a thumb safety-less weapon. But considering I routinely use AR-15s, 1911s, etc., not having a thumb safety bugs the hell out of me, and it doesn't make sense to not have training be congruous.
Considering I've never failed to drop the safety in FoF or live fire sims, and no man I've known who has actually killed in a gunfight told me it was a bad idea, I'm going to call BS on this little theory that they're somehow unsafe.

I think the more common complaint is that the extra steps in preparing the weapon to shoot are "inefficient". Choosing a defensive pistol that requires the deactivation of a safety device is just adding an unnecessary step. Even if you claim that you are without error 100% of the time (if you want), would you claim that it is impossible for the mechanical device that is the safety to fail? Extra steps and extra parts are barriers you place between yourself and your goal. They are not evil or wrong, just inefficient.

 

[David Rose]

The grip safety issues usually come from either a hurried grip, or the ultra high grip we've learned works better to control the gun.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The grip safety issues usually come from either a hurried grip, or the ultra high grip we've learned works better to control the gun.

This is a very real concern for 1911 shooters, but it can easily be solved with a sensitized grip safety or, depending on hand size, a larger "bump" on the end of the safety (don't know the technical term for said bump). I've failed to deactivate the grip safety on a Colt Commander on a hasty draw. Its difficult for me to intentionally grip my old style Springfield Loaded and not deactivate it.

 

[rvb]

Whether a deactivating a safety becomes an extra step or not depends on how well the gun works with the users grip techniques. A 1911 properly set up (high / extended thumb safety and the right shape of grip safety) does not add another step, nor is it something I have to remember to do. When I acquire the grip, the safeties just comes off. I think about it no more than I think about deactivating the trigger safety on a glock. There is a -slight- chance I could draw w/ such a horrible grip I don't deactivate one of the safeties, but I have to be so far off it's difficult to shoot. I thought remembering the safety would be a problem when I switched from a Beretta to 1911/2011 for competition a few years back, but I NEVER "forgot" the safety.

Now change the setup, and all bets are off. The STI grip safeties worked really well for me. Something like an S&A grip safety, forget it... I had better pin it. Put in a small GI style thumb safety, and forget it, my natural grip won't knock that off, I have to conciously do it. Engage the safety on something like my MkII .22, and I will forget to take it off safe every time. The AR is middle of the road, as I can usually just hit the safety as part of getting a grip, but it's not that unusual to get a grip where I naturally "miss" the safety and it becomes something I have to conciously do.

I think this is why the issue is always so debated. It depends on the users prefered grip and how the gun is set up. Some say "I never forget..." Is it that you don't forget or that the platform works well with your shooting style? What if I handed you something with a horribly inaccessible/small safety (eg a MkII), would you "remember" every time?

-rvb

ps. back on point. I apx carry, with a [gasp] glock. I holster the gun, then put the gun/holster on me. I'm always very careful about holstering and making sure the gun isn't pointed at any part of me as I do so. That's easy when the holster is on the hips, not so easy apx. I don't know that a safety would give me a whole lot of extra assurace... maybe a miniscule amount. I put the odds of getting hurt by a quality firearm in a quality holster up there with getting hit by lightning.

 

[rvb]

At times I was having an issue getting a proper grip on the gun during the draw. It may have something to do with the fact that my new holster for my new M&P hasn't arrived yet, so I was using a crappy soft hoslter.

I struggle w/ getting a solid grip from apx, too. I have to be a little slower gripping and lifting the gun than from a holster at 3-4-oclock. I think this is because of the spare tire. Rather than flesh on just the left side of the gun, now it's on the left side and over the back. Makes it hard to get my thumb around. Plus I keep my belt looser for apx vs tight for hip, so that adds some movement to the gun where I can't drive my hand into it w/o the gun moving around.

I'm working on both issues (down 25 lbs so far and looking for a holster that attaches w/ more than one belt loop).

-rvb

 

[rvb]

This is a very real concern for 1911 shooters, but it can easily be solved with a sensitized grip safety or, depending on hand size, a larger "bump" on the end of the safety (don't know the technical term for said bump). I've failed to deactivate the grip safety on a Colt Commander on a hasty draw. Its difficult for me to intentionally grip my old style Springfield Loaded and not deactivate it.

For me, it has more to do with the shape of the grip safety. I don't care how much I sensitize the safety, if I'm pushing UP on the beavertail more than I'm pushing IN with the web of my hand, it's not going to come off safe. The high grip as David mentions doesn't buy you a whole lot of extra purchase, even on the raised safeties (they put those bumps down so low). For a carry gun, I'm all in favor of just pinning the grip safety or removing the tab that blocks the trigger bow.

-rvb

 

[David Rose]

Ryan,
If you make a bullet point list of the steps to draw and fire the manual safety gun is there not an extra step? Of course there is. The fact that the step can be learned to be executed during other activities does not make it go away. It must be taught, learned, and practiced. If there is an equally usefull defensive pistol without that step, it is more eficent. It doesn't depend on feel.

 

[David Rose]

I struggle w/ getting a solid grip from apx, too. I have to be a little slower gripping and lifting the gun than from a holster at 3-4-oclock. I think this is because of the spare tire. Rather than flesh on just the left side of the gun, now it's on the left side and over the back. Makes it hard to get my thumb around. Plus I keep my belt looser for apx vs tight for hip, so that adds some movement to the gun where I can't drive my hand into it w/o the gun moving around.

I'm working on both issues (down 25 lbs so far and looking for a holster that attaches w/ more than one belt loop).

-rvb

Totally agree about the grip change. This is one of the places where defensive and competition techniques necessarily part ways.

 

[rvb]

Ryan,
If you make a bullet point list of the steps to draw and fire...

If you judge the effeciency of presenting the gun by how long it takes to read through a power-point presentation, sure. But somewhere between step 2 and step 3 as my mits are coming together and starting to form my grip around the gun (again, assuming a properly setup 1911/2011), the safety comes off. call it step 2.8. Put another way... I cannot form a proper grip w/o the safety coming off; it's un-natural feeling to keep the safety off.

I can assure you the timer does not agree that it is less efficient (In fact, compared to the trigger control needed for a moderately difficult DA or 'safe action' first shot, it is more efficient).

This all presumes the user sets the gun up properly and the gun puts the safety in a place that works with your grip... it all depends on how well the gun works with the user's grip techniques. As I said previously, put in a GI style safety on a 1911 or give me a model of gun where the safety doesnt rest between my strong thumb and the heel of my week palm, all bets are off. I couldn't imagine what a disaster the safety on a S&W Shield or Beretta 92 would be for me, for instance. I know I would forget them, and it would take a LOT of reps to build it into my presentation... that was not, however, my experience w/ the 1911.

-rvb

 

[David Rose]

I can assure you the timer does not agree that it is less efficient (In fact, compared to the trigger control needed for a moderately difficult DA or 'safe action' first shot, it is more efficient).

I should have defined the term efficient.

Efficient= using as little time, energy, or effort to achieve a desired goal.

Time is only one component of eficiency.

Also what are we putting the timer to?
Your first shot with one or the other types of pistols?
A new shooter being asked to fire an external safety free gun or a gun With a manual safety engaged?
Or
An instructor teaching the operation of one or the other types of pistols?


I have no doubt that one of Indiana's finest competitive shooters such as yourself will do we'll with either pistol. And the difference would be minimal.

The new shooter might not even successfully shoot the manual safety gun.

The instructor will need to take extra time to deal with the use of the manual safety.

An extra step, is an extra step, is an extra step........

Your individual skill doesn't change that.

 

[AD Marc]

Grip safeties are known to be problematic when a full grip can not be established such as when injured or shooting from close retention. This is why all the old school gunfighters pinned the grip safeties on their 1911's. Unfortunately, disabling safety devices doesn't look good post shooting. Fortunately, people got around to developing better guns.

 

[rvb]

I consider efficient in terms of time to get the first round on target. Everything else (training time, instruction time, etc) is not the desired goal (unless the goal is to be done training and get to dinner!).

For perpective on my position, I hosted a basic firearms class for my church small-group this past weekend... folks who don't even own guns yet. I did not recommend firearms with safeties... G19s, M&Ps, etc were my recommendations. I have no reason to believe they would put in the effort going forward to get proficient (typical), and that could result in a step they would miss if the gun is needed. That said, a new shooter may pick a gun w/ a safety for their own reasoning... we have to be able to train to that if that's what they show up with.

I believe we can't/shouldn't always pick methods based on the brand new or dis-interested shooter. So yes, I'm assuming a proper modern grip and some level of proficiency here.

My only real point here is that MY experience showed that a high/wide thumb safety on a 1911/2011 (not talking about any other gun design here) did NOT require additional training, thoughts, steps, concious efforts, or whatever you want to call it to make the gun go bang [under whatever level of stress we may or may not see in a competition environment]. That was despite years of previous training on DA guns w/ no safeties. That really surprised me until I came to understand how the gun/technique fit so well. I also know from experience with other guns that this IS very gun/technique dependant; I've come on target w/ dead triggers with other guns many times... when I was using berettas it's why my 92FS was only for practice and I used "G" model berettas (decocker only) for competition (at the time I lived in MD, so carry wasn't a concern...).

In short, going back and looking at Aaron1776's post which triggered this conversation, I'm basically agreeing with him. maybe I should have just said "+1".

I'm not a fan of absolutes, and this is another case where MY opinion on whether having a safety is a training issue... "depends..."

-rvb

ps. when I was transitioning to glocks and figuring out my grip, experimenting with different trigger finger placements, etc, I failed to disengage the trigger safety probably a couple dozen times because I didn't get my finger on the trigger fully. Is the design un-safe?