Have You Just Committed a Crime?

[Kutnupe14]

That is absolulely correct - there is no "brandishing" statute in Indiana. Does that change anyone's answer?

No, It's still intimidation. If I got this call, I'd speak to the parents and ask if they wanted you criminally liable. I'd try to sway them into just allowing me to come by and talk to you and leave it at that (assuming you're one of the few that would actually talk to police...lol).
If they did want you held responsible, I'd show up at your home get your version of events (not arrest you), and forward a PC to the pros.

The threat you communicated is clear to the average person. "Communicated," as cited by Indiana code, isn't confined to verbal speech.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

My opinion, and its just my opinion, that's intimidation and it is a crime.

Better to be sitting in your favorite recliner with a table next to it and the Kimber laying on the table as you caress it during the entire conversation

Since it's intimidation with a weapon, I thinks it's felony intimidation.

 

[Kutnupe14]

If a person is being tried for intimidation, it matters not in the slightest whether the prosecutor has charged the "victim" with a crime. All that matters is whether the judge determines that the action he was threatened about was unlawful. In this hypothetical, the action the potential threat was in regard to was unlawful; contributing to the delinquency of a minor. It makes no difference to the judge that this was uncharged.

Any time the action threatened against is a crime, particularly when it is a crime against a person in the threatener's legal custody, it is very dubious if not impossible for intimidation to lay against a person. This is especially so when the threat is of as ephemeral a nature as in this hypothetical.

I'm not advocating for anyone to do what this guy did in the hypothetical. However, calling it the crime of intimidation is a stretch at best for 2 reason:

1. The threat is not particularly clear cut.

2. The action threatened against was criminal.

That is why you are wrong when claim it is intimidation all day and all night.

Hope all is well at the VA.

Best,

Joe

I am of the belief you are incorrect. At least in the way I handle business. The problem is that no crime has been committed (ie delinquency of a minor). Only the possibility exists. We aren't supposed to hold "pre-crime" accountable; only when it happens do we find issue. When the boyfriend stated that being home at midnight "wasn't gonna happen," people are assuming that he would be doing this purposefully. The story doesn't indicate why midnight "wasn't going to happen," according to the boyfriend. He could have been making reference to traffic after the concert, the duration of the event, or a number of harmless things.

Further, I have responded to joint custody "issues" calls, where one parent who currently had legal custody of a child refused to give the child to the other parent (per Court order) due to the other parent stating that they would be keeping the child an "extra" day (ie holidays). Well, no crime has been committed, only a communication that their end wont be held up. Since no crime has been committed, yet, the parent is bound to give the child over (per the Court order).

Many parents with joint custody play these games just to get a rise out of the other party.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Since it's intimidation with a weapon, I thinks it's felony intimidation.

Yep

 

[grizman]

prove it punk, lol.

I will make sure that potential boyfriends know they will vanish if they hurt my daughter.

+1!!!!! Do it now with my oldest! No threats just a Fathers promise!!!

 

[Roadie]

OK..

Curfew is 1am on weekends, 11pm during the week.. so the day of the week will make a difference as to whether or not the boyfriend was threatening to "contribute to the delinquency.."

Age of Consent is 16 in Indiana, so the age of the boy is irrelevant(legally) unless he is her teacher, guidance counselor, doctor etc (position of power clause)

"Gaddis" would seem to suggest there is case law that supports the mere flashing of a gun as NOT being intimidation, and there was WAY more going on there that would be understood as intimidation, than in our scenario(volatile situation, argument, gun leaving holster, etc).

I say there is no way a Judge and/or Jury could prove "beyond a reasonable doubt" that the dad "communicates a threat to another person" as there is no verbal threat of any kind being made, just a simple statement, combined with the action of making a gun visible..

 

[TiminMishawaka]

I would be charged with a crime - not against the boyfriend but against my daughter for threatening her with unlawful imprisonment if this is the kind of guy she decides she's going to date.

 

[Fargo]

I am of the belief you are incorrect. At least in the way I handle business. The problem is that no crime has been committed (ie delinquency of a minor). Only the possibility exists. We aren't supposed to hold "pre-crime" accountable; only when it happens do we find issue. When the boyfriend stated that being home at midnight "wasn't gonna happen," people are assuming that he would be doing this purposefully. The story doesn't indicate why midnight "wasn't going to happen," according to the boyfriend. He could have been making reference to traffic after the concert, the duration of the event, or a number of harmless things.

Couple of things:

You are failing to consider that under IC 35-41-5-1 the boyfriend has quite possibly already committed and unlawful act by taking the substantial step of showing up to pick up a minor with the explicitly stated intention of committing a criminal act by contributing to her delinquency. As such, it is likely that the prior unlawful act portion of the statute applies. This isn't pre-crime; it is the doctrine of attempt which goes back 100's of years. A stated intention + substantial step is pretty much always going to get you there.

Additionally, I'm fairly certain that the engage in conduct against one's will portion of the statute has been held not to apply to criminal acts but without a database at home I can't pull the cite.

It matters not if the boyfriend is referring to traffic or anything like that. When dad says home at midnight, he has a legal obligation to not do anything that would cause that not to happen. If he can't have her home by then and knows it, he cannot legally take her out of her parents home.

Further, I have responded to joint custody "issues" calls, where one parent who currently had legal custody of a child refused to give the child to the other parent (per Court order) due to the other parent stating that they would be keeping the child an "extra" day (ie holidays). Well, no crime has been committed, only a communication that their end wont be held up. Since no crime has been committed, yet, the parent is bound to give the child over (per the Court order).

You are comparing apples to oranges. Court custody orders don't get voided just because a person states a future intent to not comply. What you state above has nothing to do with establishing the elements of intimidation.

Additionally, Gaddis seems to indicate that display of a firearm is not intimidation. Johnson says display+fighting words gets you there as regards prior LAWFUL acts. It is far from certain that you even meet the threshold of a threat. "Midnight" is not fighting words.

Joe

 

[warriorbob]

id say there is no evidence and it would be neck tattoo kids word vs the dads word... still better ways to handle this situation

 

[CalebToNowhere]

Agreed! I am NOT looking forward to my little girl being 17!

Ultimately, this would be the kid's word against yours. I'm thinking the conversation would have been more, "She'll be home by midnight."
"Not gonna happ--"
"You didn't hear me. I said, 'she will be home by midnight'."
"No way, man--"
"Date's off. You are trespassing. You have 10 seconds to be out my front door. You have 30 to be off my land. Don't come back. Don't contact my daughter again."

 

[trillobite]

It's been almost a year since I've posted one of my "legal scenarios," and some INGO members at the last 1500 were asking me to bring them back - so here we go:

You have a valid LTCH, and you're in the habit of carrying your Kimber Pro Carry pretty much 24/7, always concealed in a IWB holster.

Your 17 year-old daughter has starting dating someone that you really don't care for - he always avoids eye contact with you, he's a couple years older than your daughter, and he's got strange tattoos on his neck.

One night, he comes to your house to pick up your daughter, and she informs you that they're going to a rock concert nearly an hour away. You say that's fine, but she needs to be home by midnight. The "boyfriend" says, "not gonna happen, it'll be at least 1:00 am."

You raise up your shirt, show him the Kimber, and say simply, "Midnight."

The gun never leaves the holster, and you say nothing else.

The kid leaves your house, calls his parents to tell them that you've just theatened to kill him, and the cops show up at your house, looking for "the crazy guy with the gun."

Have you committed a crime?

Improper scenario for me. Here's how it'd likely go-

Your 17 year-old daughter has starting dating someone that you really don't care for - he always avoids eye contact with you, he's a couple years older than your daughter, and he's got strange tattoos on his neck.

One night, he comes to your house to pick up your daughter, and she informs you that they're going to a rock concert nearly an hour away. You say that's fine, but she needs to be home by midnight. The "boyfriend" says, "not gonna happen, it'll be at least 1:00 am."

Me: "Why a hour late?"

Him: "The concert won't end until midnight, after the encores are done, and it's a hour drive back from Indy."

Me, to daughter: "Text me when y'all are heading back, okay? I don't want your Mom worrying her head off."

I'm used to people not making eye contact with me. I have a pretty baleful gaze. Most people when first meeting me, think I'm a Narc officer, or a mechanic. Until I smile, that is.
Odds are, if anything happened, I'd be getting a call, "Dad, I'm at the Shell at I69 and Noblesville, come get me. My date had a accident with his car keys, they're sticking out of his forehead." The girls take after their Mom, a bit.

 

[indytechnerd]

Stealing from BOR:

Ultimately, this would be the kid's word against yours. I'm thinking the conversation would have been more, "She'll be home by midnight."
"Not gonna happ--"
"You didn't hear me. I said, 'she will be home by midnight'."
"No way, man--"
"Fine, I just need the make, model, year, and license plate number of your vehicle. Those Amber Alert folks like to be specific. "

 

[NIFT]

Application for Permission to Date My Daughter


APPLICATION FOR PERMISSION TO DATE MY DAUGHTER

NOTE: This application will be incomplete and rejected unless accompanied by a complete financial statement, job history, family lineage, and current medical report from your doctor that includes any and all sexually transmitted diseases.
NAME_____________________________________
DATE OF BIRTH_____________
HEIGHT___________ WEIGHT____________
IQ__________
GPA_____________
SOCIAL SECURITY #_________________
DRIVERS LICENSE #________________
BOY SCOUT RANK AND BADGES____________________________________________
HOME ADDRESS_______________________ CITY/STATE___________ ZIP______
Do you have parents? ___Yes ___No
Is one male and the other female? ___Yes ___No
If No, explain: ______________________________________________________________
Number of years they have been married ______________________________
If less than your age, explain ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________

ACCESSORIES SECTION:
A. Do you own or have access to a van? __Yes __No
B. A truck with oversized tires? __Yes __No
C. A waterbed? __Yes __No
D. A pickup with a mattress in the back? __Yes __No
E. A tattoo? __Yes __No
F. Do you have an earring, a nose ring, __Yes __No
G. Do you have a pierced tongue, pierced eyebrow, a belly button ring, any tattoos or piercings that are hidden by under shorts? __Yes __No
(IF YOU ANSWERED "YES" TO ANY OF THE ABOVE, DISCONTINUE APPLICATION AND LEAVE PREMISES IMMEDIATELY. I SUGGEST RUNNING IN LOW, SERPENTINE MANNER.)

ESSAY SECTION: In 50 words or less, what does "LATE" mean to you? ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________

In 50 words or less, what does "DON'T TOUCH MY DAUGHTER" mean to you? ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________

In 50 words or less, what does "ABSTINENCE" mean to you? ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________

REFERENCES SECTION:Church you attend ___________________________________________________
How often you attend? ________________________________________________
When would be the best time to interview your: father? _____________ mother? _____________ pastor? _____________

SHORT-ANSWER SECTION: Please answer freely and honestly; your life depends on it.

A: If I were shot, the last place I would want shot would be: ______________________________________________________________

B: If I were beaten, the last bone I would want broken is my: ______________________________________________________________

C: A woman's place is in: ______________________________________________________________

D: The one thing I hope this application does not ask me about is: ______________________________________________________________

E. What do you want to do IF you grow up? ___________________________ ______________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________

F. When I meet a girl, the thing I always notice about her first is: ______________________________________________________________

G. What is the hourly rate of a local motel room? __________________

H. Condoms come in packages of: __________________

Note: Knowledgeable answers to "G" and "H" above require immediate departure from the premises. To survive departure, run in a crouched, serpentine manner, seeking cover at every chance until out of range.

I SWEAR THAT ALL INFORMATION SUPPLIED ABOVE IS TRUE AND CORRECT TOTHE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH, DISMEMBERMENT,NATIVE AMERICAN FIRE-ANT TORTURE, CRUCIFIXION, ELECTROCUTION, CHINESEWATER TORTURE, RED HOT POKERS, AND HILLARY CLINTON KISS TORTURE._________________________________________________________

Applicant's Signature (that means sign your name, moron!)_______________________________ ________________________________

Mother's Signature, Father's Signature _______________________________ ________________________________

Pastor/Priest/Rabbi State Representative/Congressman ___________________________________

Thank you for your interest. Answers must be genuine, verifiable, and non-sexual.

Application must be accompanied by a $500.00, non-refundable application fee in cash, cashier’s check, or money order.

Please allow four to six years for processing.You will be contacted in writing if you are approved. Please do not try to call or write (since you probably can't write correctly, anyway).

If your application is rejected, you will be notified, in person, by two large gentlemen wearing fedora hats and carrying violin cases.

 

[snowman46919]

I think your all off you're rocker, if/when I have a daughter she would be pointing at the OC'ed sig and say I will be home by midnight.

 

[mainjet]

I kind of go along with intimidation with threat of bodily harm I don't know if there is such a thing.

If you change the gun to a shovel and when the kid says not gonna happen, you raise the shovel up high and say "midnight". You clearly are not trying to show him how high you can lift a shovel. You are telling him if you don;t follow my instructions you get the shovel.

So I would not think that the "proud of my nice rose wood grips" defense holds up. Particularly since the time that you chose to show those "nice rose wood grips" was as you repeated your "desire" to make the "gentleman" comply with your "wishes".

Wouldn't this be the same as going to a bank and saying "give me the money" then raising your shirt to show a handgun. Thus implying that if you do not give me the money then you will be shot.

Well - that's my crazy stab at it. I like this game and I shall rep you positively for it

 

[melensdad]

... You say that's fine, but she needs to be home by midnight. The "boyfriend" says, "not gonna happen, it'll be at least 1:00 am." ...

Simple. Daughter stays home that night.

Further, all the boys at Melen's school know I carry. No need to "show" the gun. One boy jokingly put his arm around my daughter while we were chaparoning her school trip to France. I handed my LTCH to the kid behind me, told him to 'pass it back', when it got to the boy he immediately took his arm off of my daughter and passed the card back to me.

I guess that was intimidating too? A pink piece of paper. But EVERY kid on that trip found out fast. There were no issues the rest of the trip.

 

[eldirector]

To answer the question: intimidation at its finest. Warranted, but still.....

Me, personally? The "boyfriend" would get to apologize to my daughter for no longer having the honor of escorting her to the concert, and would promptly leave...... alone.

Thank goodness I have a few years before I have to deal with this!

 

[Roadie]

So, despite the previously posted case law, where pulling a gun out of a holster and placing it on a dashboard during a heated argument was found NOT to be intimidation, several of you still feel showing a holstered gun, without any threat, IS intimidation..

Please elaborate..

 

[LegatoRedrivers]

Borrowing a bit from Bill, but I would probably take what I learned from the Old Man on Pawn Stars:

"She'll be home by midnight."
"Not gonna happ--"
"11:30."
"No way, man--"
"11:00. Want to keep going?"

 

[warriorbob]

if he had been OCing there wouldnt have been a problem