Gov't power to shut down churches

[T.Lex]

After Paris, the French government has taken the extraordinary step of shutting down 3 mosques due to "radicalization."

3 mosques in France shut down 'on grounds of radicalization' - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve says three mosques have been shut down in France since the Paris attacks as part of a crackdown on extremist activities.
Cazeneuve told reporters it was the first time mosques are being closed in France "on grounds of radicalization."

Would INGO be bothered by this if there was an effort to do that here in the US? Or is that a reasonable action to address the terror threat?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'd be bothered. If there are people in church committing crimes, take them out of the church/mosque, and lock them up.

 

[miguel]

After Paris, the French government has taken the extraordinary step of shutting down 3 mosques due to "radicalization."

Would INGO be bothered by this if there was an effort to do that here in the US? Or is that a reasonable action to address the terror threat?

The government doing it, yes.

I'd be bothered. If there are people in church committing crimes, take them out of the church/mosque, and lock them up.

Yes, I'm with Kutnupe.

 

[HoughMade]

I'd be bothered. If there are people in church committing crimes, take them out of the church/mosque, and lock them up.

Agreed.

Freedom means that people are allowed to preach what they will. At least that's what it should mean.

When that speech tips over into criminal action, that's where you address it. Not when it's still religious speech only.

 

[DRob]

Here's how one Baptist pastor addressed the topic. Bearing in mind that the OP is about France and not the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvjMUrPUfC4

 

[Trigger Time]

After Paris, the French government has taken the extraordinary step of shutting down 3 mosques due to "radicalization."

3 mosques in France shut down 'on grounds of radicalization' - 13 WTHR Indianapolis



Would INGO be bothered by this if there was an effort to do that here in the US? Or is that a reasonable action to address the terror threat?

If your preaching killing people because they don't follow your religious beliefs or religious laws then you're a terrorist and shouldn't be protected by freedom of religion. Christian, Muslim, or Jehovah's Witness. Doesn't matter, shut it down. Of coarse we know which ones wanna cut off heads and blow themselves up and it's typically Muslims

 

[indiucky]

I'd be bothered. If there are people in church committing crimes, take them out of the church/mosque, and lock them up.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Kutnupe14]

If your preaching killing people because they don't follow your religious beliefs or religious laws then you're a terrorist and shouldn't be protected by freedom of religion. Christian, Muslim, or Jehovah's Witness. Doesn't matter, shut it down. Of coarse we know which ones wanna cut off heads and blow themselves up and it's typically Muslims

If the religious institution is being explicit, as in saying "take up you guns, build your bombs, and kill the non-believers," that would be one thing. However, I doubt it's said that clearly. If someone told his congregation, "be like true followers of God, and punish the sinner that refuses to recognize him," I think you get into an area that is clearly speech, despite us knowing that such language could purposefully be used radicalized some.

 

[Arthur Dent]

If your preaching killing people because they don't follow your religious beliefs or religious laws then you're a terrorist and shouldn't be protected by freedom of religion. Christian, Muslim, or Jehovah's Witness. Doesn't matter, shut it down. Of coarse we know which ones wanna cut off heads and blow themselves up and it's typically Muslims

I believe this is going into the territory of thought police. If you can get evidence that they are going to commit a crime, in which case they are committing a crime by making explosives, getting illegal weapons, etc., then arrest them. Until that point it's merely talk. That would be like arresting you for getting angry with someone and yelling "I want to just f'ing kill you right now!"

 

[Denny347]

After Paris, the French government has taken the extraordinary step of shutting down 3 mosques due to "radicalization."

3 mosques in France shut down 'on grounds of radicalization' - 13 WTHR Indianapolis



Would INGO be bothered by this if there was an effort to do that here in the US? Or is that a reasonable action to address the terror threat?

France has many issues with their Muslim community and this will NOT help. It will likely only make it worse.

 

[Trigger Time]

I believe this is going into the territory of thought police. If you can get evidence that they are going to commit a crime, in which case they are committing a crime by making explosives, getting illegal weapons, etc., then arrest them. Until that point it's merely talk. That would be like arresting you for getting angry with someone and yelling "I want to just f'ing kill you right now!"

I think they can and will arrest you for saying that. Isn't it called
teroristic threats or something like that? Or intimidation?
Not sure but yes I agree there is a fine line.

 

[JTScribe]

I'd be bothered. If there are people in church committing crimes, take them out of the church/mosque, and lock them up.

Devil's advocate - where do you draw the line at the free speech rights of religious leaders to preach and incitement to commit crimes? All too often it is the leadership of the particular mosques that are the ones spinning the parishioners up.

 

[Arthur Dent]

I think they can and will arrest you for saying that. Isn't it called
teroristic threats or something like that? Or intimidation?
Not sure but yes I agree there is a fine line.

Depending on the wording you can get arrested. Saying "I'm going to kill/beat/maim you" is assault. Saying "I want to kill/beat/maim you" is protected speech. Because you're not threatening, you're just expressing how you're feeling. Yes, it's a fine line.

 

[T.Lex]

Bearing in mind that the OP is about France and not the USA.

Actually, the OP is about the USA, but using the French as an example.

Should this kind of thing be allowed here?

If your preaching killing people because they don't follow your religious beliefs or religious laws then you're a terrorist and shouldn't be protected by freedom of religion. Christian, Muslim, or Jehovah's Witness. Doesn't matter, shut it down. Of coarse we know which ones wanna cut off heads and blow themselves up and it's typically Muslims

If the religious institution is being explicit, as in saying "take up you guns, build your bombs, and kill the non-believers," that would be one thing. However, I doubt it's said that clearly. If someone told his congregation, "be like true followers of God, and punish the sinner that refuses to recognize him," I think you get into an area that is clearly speech, despite us knowing that such language could purposefully be used radicalized some.

First, as the Hitchhiker above alludes to, encouraging people to do evil things isn't necessarily illegal. At least not in Indiana. It takes more than words, I believe, to make it a crime.

There's also an important distinction, I think. If someone - a priest, rabbi, imam, FSM evangelist - engages in a conspiracy to commit murder then they should be arrested. The congregation would have to find a new person to fill that role.

But that's not what France is doing. They are closing the mosque. It is separate from any arrests. They are effectively saying, "We don't trust this place or the people who gather here."

Isn't that different?

 

[printcraft]

After Paris, the French government has taken the extraordinary step of shutting down 3 mosques due to "radicalization."

3 mosques in France shut down 'on grounds of radicalization' - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

Would INGO be bothered by this if there was an effort to do that here in the US? Or is that a reasonable action to address the terror threat?

Who is funding these three mosques in question?
There is a group pushing this radical agenda. Our allies saudi arabia and wahhabism.
Might be a connection worth looking into across the board.

There are churches, temples, synagogues anywhere across the planet where the chances of you going in and leaving in one piece are near 100%.......
Can you say the same for mosques?

 

[T.Lex]

Who is funding these three mosques in question?

In the US? Does it matter?

There is a group pushing this radical agenda. Our allies saudi arabia and wahhabism.
Might be a connection worth looking into across the board.

For criminal conduct, absolutely. But that doesn't change the "shutting down" part. Unless I'm just not tracking you.

There are churches, temples, synagogues anywhere across the planet where the chances of you going in and leaving in one piece are near 100%.......
Can you say the same for mosques?

In the United States, in my experience, yes.

 

[printcraft]

In the US? Does it matter?

For criminal conduct, absolutely. But that doesn't change the "shutting down" part. Unless I'm just not tracking you.

Somebody is doing the radicalization.... who is putting the imams in these mosques in charge?


In the United States, in my experience, yes.

So outside the US (for now, give it time) your chances in some places go down..... there is a reason.

^^^^^^

 

[Rocket]

The fine line is this. If this were to happen here, as in closing Mosques, where do they stop? How long till there is no freedom to worship together? That is a very deep rabbit hole. Because ladies and gents, that's where we would go if that happens. Just like if we just let them have our ARs. They will ask for everything else. If you will recall Christians are suspects to liberals. Just read the initial ASSumptions on this recent tragedy. We had best not let this happen here. If there are people pushing a radical agenda that promotes criminal activity, arrest them, charge them and put them in prison.

 

[jamil]

After Paris, the French government has taken the extraordinary step of shutting down 3 mosques due to "radicalization."

3 mosques in France shut down 'on grounds of radicalization' - 13 WTHR Indianapolis



Would INGO be bothered by this if there was an effort to do that here in the US? Or is that a reasonable action to address the terror threat?

Yep.

I'd be bothered. If there are people in church committing crimes, take them out of the church/mosque, and lock them up.

Yep.

 

[T.Lex]

Somebody is doing the radicalization.... who is putting the imams in these mosques in charge?

I do not know the bureaucracy of mosques in America, but my understanding is that it is much like Christian (non-Catholic) churches. A group of Muslims start a mosque and they interview imams or one of the congregation steps up and starts being the imam.

Either way, where is the criminal conduct? Closing a church is tantamount to saying .gov doesn't like the thinking that happens in that building.

The closest analog I can think of in the US is when that church in Indy was foreclosed on. I can't remember the details now, but it was closed because it didn't pay its bills, not because of what it taught.

Heck, if it were put to a vote, I think the Westboro people's church would be shut down right away.