"Get out of my house"

[IndySSD]

Its easy for every one to say, "I would have shot him dead, blah blah blah" but when placed in the actual situation, in my opinion, taking someones life and the consequences associated with it become very Real. Unless your a cold blooded killer with no regard for human life, shooting and possibly killing another human being would go completly against your nature, even in a situation such as this. Id like to thank the person who shared this story because it gives level-headed, law abiding citizens who own firearms, like most if not all of the people on here, a chance to relate to a real life scenario to learn from your experience, and adjust our actions properly should something like this ever take place. Good job, thanks again.

It's easy for one who has never had any personal tragedy or victimization to sit and condemn those of us who choose to be prepared mentally and physically to defend ourselves. In my opinion taking someones life and the consequences hold less weight on my conscience than if I had failed my family and my wife / son / other loved one lost their life because I chose not to or was unable to defend them.

I tell you what, you get your family victimized and see what kind of outlook you have on people threatening your family's safety.

I am by no means a cold blooded killer but as someone who has hunted since the age of 6 or so and have had immediate family members abducted at gunpoint and others held at gunpoint while yet another has been shot at on multiple occasions I can tell you from my life experience that the second someone crosses the line of safety of my family or loved ones, their lives are no more valuable than the deer, squirrel or rabbits that I've provided myself sustenance with over the years. And they will be eliminated as a threat to the best of my ability in the same manner.


This photo reflects my sentiments pretty closely when it comes to home defense.

Replace the road/speed limit with my home and my family's safety and replace the blackhawk with me.

Occasionally, the consequences of threatening someones safety must be disproportionately escalated to dissuade those that partake in the victimization of law abiding citizens.

 

[Jon Craig]

It's easy for one who has never had any personal tragedy or victimization to sit and condemn those of us who choose to be prepared mentally and physically to defend ourselves.

While in the specific case presented by the OP, I agree with his restraint, I also agree with the sentiments of SafeShootingDad. You threaten my family, you're done. It's just that simple.

During the L.A. riots of '93, I did have such a situation. A member of a gang did threaten the life of my mother. While I did not end his life myself, I did actually shoot him soon after. A week later he was taken care of - "suicide by cop."

So, yeah... I'm prepared. Now, in the OP's situation, I probably would not have shot, as the man did not seem to be an actual threat. He had no weapon and made no threatening statements.

 

[IndySSD]

While in the specific case presented by the OP, I agree with his restraint, I also agree with the sentiments of SafeShootingDad. You threaten my family, you're done. It's just that simple.

During the L.A. riots of '93, I did have such a situation. A member of a gang did threaten the life of my mother. While I did not end his life myself, I did actually shoot him soon after. A week later he was taken care of - "suicide by cop."

So, yeah... I'm prepared. Now, in the OP's situation, I probably would not have shot, as the man did not seem to be an actual threat. He had no weapon and made no threatening statements.

Yes, I agree, but my statements in the post you quoted aren't geared towards the OP, they are geared towards Hi Points comment of home defense shooters being cold blooded killers.

While I'm glad this situation worked out well, I'm not sure if it would have transpired/ended the same in my house but my house is very different situation than the OP. My doors/windows would have had to have been forcibly breached and that immediately changes my situation from the OP's.

 

[Jon Craig]

Yes, I agree, but my statements in the post you quoted aren't geared towards the OP, they are geared towards Hi Points comment of home defense shooters being cold blooded killers.

Oh, yeah, ridiculous.

If you're not "ok" with maybe having to kill someone... You don't need to be carrying a handgun. Seriously. You don't put it on "stun."

My doors/windows would have had to have been forcibly breached and that immediately changes my situation from the OP's.

Completely. And you've obviously got children, and that puts juries more on your side anyway. And is going to cause you to act differently; that's perfectly reasonable.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Its easy for every one to say, "I would have shot him dead, blah blah blah" but when placed in the actual situation, in my opinion, taking someones life and the consequences associated with it become very Real. Unless your a cold blooded killer with no regard for human life, shooting and possibly killing another human being would go completly against your nature, even in a situation such as this. Id like to thank the person who shared this story because it gives level-headed, law abiding citizens who own firearms, like most if not all of the people on here, a chance to relate to a real life scenario to learn from your experience, and adjust our actions properly should something like this ever take place. Good job, thanks again.

are you the guy who came in the window?

killing is never fun. If im forced into that mindset then I become a monster, totaly different than I would ever be in real life. and thats good, because killing a human should never seem normal, even when they are trying to kill you. but it can be right and easy to do with proper training and experience, or even a strong mental fortitude.
people who are weak in day to day activities of life, will also be the ones to fail when SHTF (like a self defense shooting), because they do not have the inner mental strength to accomplish what needs to be done. and so they will be a victim because of innaction.

I would rather be safe than sorry 100% of the time. and believe me, if i pull that gun I will use it, and wont be sorry. the reason is that I will weigh the situation before the gun comes out of the holster or is presented at the threat. once you introduce deadly force into a situation then there will be a stronger reaction to it than if you just used a verbal command. the question will be are you prepared and justified to execute the actions required to face the reaction? its like if you ever go hands on with a combatant, you NEVER let go of them until they are properly restrained or you ENSURE that they are not a threat. you cant choke a bad guy and expect him to just respond peacefully if you let go and give him a chance to leave. I believe the same is true in a home invasion. if you give the bad guy a chance to leave after a threat has been made and you have presented deadly force, I think you are putting yourself at a STRONG disadvantage. people who have never experienced combat or a FTF confrontation, do not realize how rapidly a combatant can close in on your possition. unless you live in a mansion and the bad guy is over 30 feet from you, he is gonna be up on you quicker than you can imagine. your reaction time will be almost zero.
ANY intruder that has forced his way into my house is a deadly threat! i dont care if he is (or was) previously a drunk college kid. the introduction to him of stress and the real possibility that he could die, and then the drugs or alcohol in his system could turn him into a killer. his ability to rationalize is HIGHLY diminished. In the OPs case, i truely believe the guy thought for a split second of seing what he could get away with and trying to overpower the OP. for some reason he changed his mind. it could have been the strong tone in the OPs voice that told the gy he wasnt playing, it could have been the light. it could have been the other people. we will never know. but i can tell you that me personaly, I would have shot the man dead, as soon as he advanced. there would have been no second chance. the first one would have been my only act of weakness.

 

[finity]

Yes, I agree, but my statements in the post you quoted aren't geared towards the OP, they are geared towards Hi Points comment of home defense shooters being cold blooded killers.

While I'm glad this situation worked out well, I'm not sure if it would have transpired/ended the same in my house but my house is very different situation than the OP. My doors/windows would have had to have been forcibly breached and that immediately changes my situation from the OP's.

I didn't take Hi-point's comment to mean that any home defense shooter who kills someone is a "cold-blooded killer". I took it to mean (& he said this) IF you could shoot another human being, fully intending to kill them & not have some small twinge of "Oh SH!T!!" or remorse THEN you are a cold-blooded killer.

I agree with that BUT I also know that you have to have in your mind, that when you decide the line HAS BEEN CROSSED, that you will take appropriate action without hesitation. To hesitate is to dangerous.

My whole point is, to be able to survive the legal danger after the physical danger is over, you MUST know the limitations placed on you by the law & operate withion those limits. To survive the physical confrontation only to lose your freedom or your life due to the legal one is antithetical to our idea of self-defense.

No matter what your moral philosophy is on crime & criminals you live in a society that condemns the killing of another person over mere possesions.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I didn't take Hi-point's comment to mean that any home defense shooter who kills someone is a "cold-blooded killer". I took it to mean (& he said this) IF you could shoot another human being, fully intending to kill them & not have some small twinge of "Oh SH!T!!" or remorse THEN you are a cold-blooded killer.

I agree with that BUT I also know that you have to have in your mind, that when you decide the line HAS BEEN CROSSED, that you will take appropriate action without hesitation. To hesitate is to dangerous.

My whole point is, to be able to survive the legal danger after the physical danger is over, you MUST know the limitations placed on you by the law & operate withion those limits. To survive the physical confrontation only to lose your freedom or your life due to the legal one is antithetical to our idea of self-defense.

No matter what your moral philosophy is on crime & criminals you live in a society that condemns the killing of another person over mere possesions.

I live with no regret for past descisions nor would I have any regret for any future self defense action. as long as the reason is to preserve me and my family, country and friends then I can justify and make peace with it in my mind. im not saying i dont or wont remember it, but i am saying that i wont wish for it to have been different because that would be a waste of time and stress over nothing that can or could be changed.

 

[hi-pointfan1]

While in the specific case presented by the OP, I agree with his restraint, I also agree with the sentiments of SafeShootingDad. You threaten my family, you're done. It's just that simple.

So, yeah... I'm prepared. Now, in the OP's situation, I probably would not have shot, as the man did not seem to be an actual threat. He had no weapon and made no threatening statements.

Couldn't agree with you more on both quotes above. My comment was supposed to be relevant to the story originally starting this thread. People were over zelous in stating that they would have just shot and killed the man. But, I don't think that the situation as described warranted lethal force. As you said, "the man had no weapon and made no threatening statements". To shoot and kill an unarmed man that was outnumbered and being held at gun point would have been to shoot and kill in cold blood. Don't agree ? Let's think about it this way... if a police officer were to shoot an "unarmed man making no threatining statements" what would the outcome be? No need to answer, we've seen plenty of examples already making national news.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Couldn't agree with you more on both quotes above. My comment was supposed to be relevant to the story originally starting this thread. People were over zelous in stating that they would have just shot and killed the man. But, I don't think that the situation as described warranted lethal force. As you said, "the man had no weapon and made no threatening statements". To shoot and kill an unarmed man that was outnumbered and being held at gun point would have been to shoot and kill in cold blood. Don't agree ? Let's think about it this way... if a police officer were to shoot an "unarmed man making no threatining statements" what would the outcome be? No need to answer, we've seen plenty of examples already making national news.

well i can tell by your username (hi-pointfan1) that you are a person with great taste and infinite wisdom.

sooooooo, im suprised that you bring up this BS and over used (by inexperienced persons) term: "un-armed".

you do know that a person can kill with their bare hands dont you?

you do know that people can hide a weapon in the small of their back right? also under shirts, in pockets, etc

also, how hard would it be to take the weapon your holding in your hand away from you? i can tell you, not very hard, and if you would like a demonstration then please attend a MSG2 meeting and I will show you.

I laugh at the term un-armed when we are talking about a person who climed through a FREAKING WINDOW to enter someone elses residence!!!! Thats not normal behavior, i dont care what planet your on. "un-armed" or not they are a deadly threat at that point.

 

[IndySSD]

well i can tell by your username (hi-pointfan1) that you are a person with great taste and infinite wisdom.

sooooooo, im suprised that you bring up this BS and over used (by inexperienced persons) term: "un-armed".

you do know that a person can kill with their bare hands dont you?

you do know that people can hide a weapon in the small of their back right? also under shirts, in pockets, etc

also, how hard would it be to take the weapon your holding in your hand away from you? i can tell you, not very hard, and if you would like a demonstration then please attend a MSG2 meeting and I will show you.

I laugh at the term un-armed when we are talking about a person who climed through a FREAKING WINDOW to enter someone elses residence!!!! Thats not normal behavior, i dont care what planet your on. "un-armed" or not they are a deadly threat at that point.

^^ Pretty much this.....

Anyone with any experience in H2H or small arms weaponry knows that you don't need to be carrying a visible firearm or knife to subdue, harm or even kill another person.

Also, those of us who have trained for years in martial arts (real martial arts, not just strip mall Tae-Kwon-Do studios where they wear glittery gold embossed Gi) are the same folks to take home defense much more seriously and are less tolerant of "unarmed" folks because we know what WE can do with an Ink pen/spoon/key/concealed knife/bare hands/etc..... Just imagine what someone else who has criminal intent can do!

Also, no-one is ever truly unarmed, unless they literally have no appendages. I've seen a guy take out 3 people bigger than him who had knives and baseball bats in a neighborhood "jump" before with just his bare hands and his jacket.

 

[Jon Craig]

Eh - SSD and E5Ranger are not wrong, sadly.

 

[finity]

I live with no regret for past descisions nor would I have any regret for any future self defense action. as long as the reason is to preserve me and my family, country and friends then I can justify and make peace with it in my mind. im not saying i dont or wont remember it, but i am saying that i wont wish for it to have been different because that would be a waste of time and stress over nothing that can or could be changed.

I fully agree.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I fully agree.

It took me afew years to come to that realization. it has brought me and others great peace.

 

[IndySSD]

I fully agree.

First time I think finity and I have ever seen 100% eye to eye on any subject on this forum ever.

I also fully agree w/Ranger's statement.

 

[finity]

First time I think finity and I have ever seen 100% eye to eye on any subject on this forum ever.

What? You don't like guns or the Bill of Rights (the document not the mod )?

 

[hi-pointfan1]

Hey, leave Hi-point out of this man, lol. No need for low blows, lol. E5ranger I think what you want to hear is "you're right" you've obviously played out these scenarios countless time in your mind and in your living room breaking furniture as you dive over couches and using family members as pretend hostages, lmao. Let me ask you this, do you sleep with face paint and your tactical gear on too, or have you just not gotten any sleep in a long time? Your response was kind of out landish I sisnt take the time to read it all but it was something about living on other planets and kungfu urban warfare by skilled assailants in the middle of the night lmao. Yeah I'm sure you'd take the gun out of my hands faster than I could pull the trigger .... several times. But hopefully a guy as skilled covert and well educated in the field of martial arts won't climb through my window someday. But now that you've made me aware of such a threat ... ill be ready. On second thought, maybe my "High-Point" 9mm doesn't shoot as hard as other 9mm's do so i should probably go out and buy something more expensive for home protection.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Hey, E5ranger I think you're right.

thats all i needed thanks

great post!!!!

 

[USMC_0311]

Hey, leave Hi-point out of this man, lol. No need for low blows, lol. E5ranger I think what you want to hear is "you're right" you've obviously played out these scenarios countless time in your mind and in your living room breaking furniture as you dive over couches and using family members as pretend hostages, lmao. Let me ask you this, do you sleep with face paint and your tactical gear on too, or have you just not gotten any sleep in a long time? Your response was kind of out landish I sisnt take the time to read it all but it was something about living on other planets and kungfu urban warfare by skilled assailants in the middle of the night lmao. Yeah I'm sure you'd take the gun out of my hands faster than I could pull the trigger .... several times. But hopefully a guy as skilled covert and well educated in the field of martial arts won't climb through my window someday. But now that you've made me aware of such a threat ... ill be ready. On second thought, maybe my "High-Point" 9mm doesn't shoot as hard as other 9mm's do so i should probably go out and buy something more expensive for home protection.

 

[RichardR]

IC 35-41-3-2 is very clear.

(b) A person:
(1) is justified in using reasonable force, including deadly force, against another person; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that the force is necessary to prevent or terminate the other person's unlawful entry of or attack on the person's dwelling, curtilage, or occupied motor vehicle.

There is no "you can only use deadly force in self-defense requirement" in that statute, in fact the statute specifically states that deadly force is reasonable force under the specified conditions spelled out in IC 35-41-3-2.

 

[indyjoe]

The first Force on Force training I did years ago was a big wake up call for me. I'm in a situation that I KNOW people are going to try to "kill" me. You know what happened that first few times? I was pulling the trigger about the same time I was getting stabbed.

Unless you have trained for this, it is a BIG eye opener. If this will be the criminal's third strike, maybe they will fight all out. Hesitation can get you dead.

That isn't to say that I would have shot this man, in the OPs post. However, if he started to leave and started back, it would have been close. If someone knows that you are pointing a gun at them and still continues toward you, there is going to be a problem. I could fill him full of all the rounds in my Glock 23 and it is possible that I get a fatal knife wound before he drops, if the rounds hit non vital areas of his chest.

Legally, if he breaks into your home and you are in fear for your life, you can drop him. Period. Everything else is just mercy.