Gabe Suarez stops development of AKs, looks to other rifles

[MilitaryArms]

I'll toss my 2 cents in.

I don't think the 556R is a good choice for an AK replacement, even if they have fixed the many problems with the original rifle.

The AR is probably the best alternative. Honestly, there are two commonly available rifles on the US market that are neck and neck competitors. The AR and the AK.

When Gabe was pushing the AK, he used to have some unflattering comments regarding the AR. At the time I agreed with his position, for what he was doing the AK seemed to be the better choice than the AR. However, if you take the AK out of the equation that leaves the AR.

Gabe has had his test sample 556R now for a couple of weeks and has posted a video in the last couple of days saying the 556R is his new 7.62x39 go-to rifle. I must say I was a bit surprised by that announcement given the limited time he's been evaluating it. It would take me months and thousand of rounds fired before I chose a new "go-to" rifle. Given the rifles history, I would want to see how it held up to some serious long term use.

Gabe has also made comments about Steyr AUG's recently. I think he's waiting for Steyr to reintroduce the A3 AUG's and he may be doing more with them in the future. But over an AR? In the US? I don't know... I'm a fan of the AUG but I don't think it's superior to the AR for a number of reasons.

Personally, I think he should take a long hard look at optimizing an AR for his needs. It would appeal to a wider market and he will find it much easier to find quality parts to configure one into his "ultimate fighting rifle" that he originally envisioned being built on the VEPR. Perhaps a gas piston AR would be a good choice.

I'm curious where Gabe will be in a year. I'm willing to bet the 556R isn't the rifle he'll chose for his new ultimate fighting rifle in the long run... it's just a gut feeling.

 

[shooter521]

Personally, I think he should take a long hard look at optimizing an AR for his needs.

He could, but then he'd have to take back all those snide remarks he's made about "the M4 crowd". Plus, it's awfully hard to set yourself out as a contrarian if you're promoting the same rifle everyone else is already using.

 

[MilitaryArms]

He could, but then he'd have to take back all those snide remarks he's made about "the M4 crowd". Plus, it's awfully hard to set yourself out as a contrarian if you're promoting the same rifle everyone else is already using.

True, even in the thread linked to in the OPs post Gabe mocks AR's and their owners several times.

Ironically he's made some pretty disparaging comments about AK owners lately, the same people he once embraced and sold thousands of dollars worth the gear to.

He's looking at SCARs, FS2000's, AUGs and Tavors. Given the price of some of these and the fact others aren't even on the market yet I suspect he will continue to focus on the relatively cheap and readily available alternatives like the 556R and PTRs for now.

In my opinion the AR is the most viable choice if cost, quality and practicality are considered.

 

[shooter521]

Ironically he's made some pretty disparaging comments about AK owners lately, the same people he once embraced and sold thousands of dollars worth the gear to.

/not shocked

As mentioned previously, Gabe seems to be very "all or nothing" in his opinions. He used to rail against red dot sights and other such modern accoutrements on AKs, but lately he's been all about them. Until he suddenly decided that AKs suck.

In my opinion the AR is the most viable choice if cost, quality and practicality are considered.

Absolutely agreed. But this has always been the case, despite what Gabe and others have done to market the AK and other platforms. You can put a whole lot of time, money and effort into (re)building an AK to be the best rifle it can possibly be... only to realize it's now almost as good as your average off-the-rack Tier 1 AR.

 

[Slow Hand]

He could, but then he'd have to take back all those snide remarks he's made about "the M4 crowd". Plus, it's awfully hard to set yourself out as a contrarian if you're promoting the same rifle everyone else is already using.

Exactly!!

It's amazing what lengths some people will go to before sitting down to a big dinner of crow....

 

[Fordtough25]

I think I will stick to my AK and AR for all my close to mid range needs. They work, work well, and everything is available for both! And I am comfortable with them, function, cleaning, shooting. This whole thing with Mr. Suarez is nuts.

 

[Que]

In my opinion the AR is the most viable choice if cost, quality and practicality are considered.

Absolutely agreed. But this has always been the case, despite what Gabe and others have done to market the AK and other platforms. You can put a whole lot of time, money and effort into (re)building an AK to be the best rifle it can possibly be... only to realize it's now almost as good as your average off-the-rack Tier 1 AR.

Alright I have two of the guys who's opinions I value saying something that I would like to challenge. It appears to me -- and this is only my humble opinion -- that the average guy spends a great deal of money on their rifles just because it's fun to upgrade and they can afford it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. However, I've not seen a case where the upgrades make the individual any more tactically proficient with their weapon. Exactly what kind of upgrades does one put on a rifle to make it better for the shooter besides sights and trigger?

If cost, quality, and practicality are considered, can the two of you explain how you arrive at your opinion that the AR is the better option? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think this is a wonderful learning opportunity for all of us less experienced guys.

 

[SSGSAD]

I'll take a shot, Que, when I was a MARINE, back in 1977, WE shot the OLD A-1 M-16, at 500 yards..... and WE HIT what we aimed at ..... I have been told all my shooting life, that AK's, are ONLY good out to 300 yards.... NOW, I have NO personal experience, with the AK platform.... I'll let someone who has shot an AK, at a distance longer than 300 yards comment. BUT IMHO, WHY take a rifle, ANY rifle, and DUMP a ton of money into it, just to make it shoot, as far, or as accurate, as another rifle, off the shelf ?????

 

[MilitaryArms]

If cost, quality, and practicality are considered, can the two of you explain how you arrive at your opinion that the AR is the better option? I'm not saying you are wrong, but I think this is a wonderful learning opportunity for all of us less experienced guys.

Let's say you need a rifle for taking a course, personal defense, the zombie apocalypse, whatever.

Cost for most Americans in these financial times is always a consideration. What do you think would sell better, a $800 AR or a $1,300 556R? Or, which do you think would sell better and make more sense to most consumers, an $800 AR or a $2,300 SCAR? In the end that's what Gabe is trying to do, find a rifle that's affordable and popular enough that he can sell them to his customers. The harder he has to work to convince his customers the rifle is a good choice the less business sense it makes. That's what this is all about mind you, it's not about choosing what the best rifle is for the job, it's about choosing the one he can sell. He selected the best rifle in his opinion when he adopted the AK years ago. He stopped using it because he had a falling out with the manufacturing community, not because the rifle suddenly became obsolete as a fighting tool.

I would say most black rifle buyers see the value in the AR's modularity hence the extreme popularity of the rifle. Need a rail? You have 30 to choose from ranging in price from affordable to expensive. Need a way to mount a flash light? You have more options than you can shake a stick at. Trying to find a mount for your RDS? No problem. Need a different pistol grip that fits your hand better? Again, ample choices. Want a match barrel and don't want to send it off to a gun smith to have it installed? The AR allows you to install a wide variety of barrels including light weight pencil barrels, SBR barrels, match barrels, etc. Thinking a gas system upgrade is for you because DI doesn't suit your needs? Osprey and others have drop in piston kits. Don't care for the Mapul backup sights your rifle came with? No problem, take your pick of something better. I could go on.

While you may not see the value in all of this, there is value to many if not most rifle consumers. Gabe himself was attempting to do something similar with his "ultimate" rifle concept. He was building a modular AK using 3rd party parts and accessories to optimize the platform based on his experience with it.

I am sure once Gabe settles on a new rifle he will begin his efforts to built he ultimate rifle again through his customization shop, TSD. He did it with the AK, he did it with the Glock, and he'll do it with whatever he chooses next. The AR is very hard to beat in the customization department and he can spend a lot of time and money reinventing the wheel or he could consider adopting the defacto standard... the AR.

 

[esrice]

Exactly what kind of upgrades does one put on a rifle to make it better for the shooter besides sights and trigger?

I can think of a few.

Weaponlight -- this allows a shooter to engage at a light level that would otherwise mean not shooting.

Control enhancements -- things like a VFG or BAD lever that give the shooter greater and more efficient control over the weapon system.

Sling -- whether as an accuracy enhancer or as a rifle "holster".

Compensator -- controls muzzle climb and allows the shooter to engage faster.

 

[Que]

@ esrice, FA, and SSG - I see what you all are saying. I guess my point is that I don't believe the average EDC guy out there can take the most tricked-out Colt AR on the market and be any better at engaging and destroying a target at 100-300 yards than they could with an AK. But, I could be wrong.

Still, people believe that by purchasing everything that the traininers and operators say is the new sliced bread, they will be better. I have nothing against anyone profiting from their experience and expertise, but I just like to know WHY something is better or WHY I should put it on my rifle and WHAT I should expect to see after spending the money. Many times, I believe these questions go unasked or ignored by those pushing the product.

Esrice, I understand how the upgrades you mentioned can help a shooter perform better. However, placing the same options on both the AK and AR (minus the BAD Lever), which rifle will perform better in the hands of the average shooter?

Training, training, training . . . I believe that's the only way to truly get better, no matter the price of the gun, its options, or who placed their stamp of approval on it.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Que,

I'm a guy that chooses the AK over the AR for my "go-to" rifle. I get what you're saying.

My point about Gabe and his defection from the AK is that moving to a platform other than the AR doesn't make much sense if the goal is to adopt the best possible fighting rifle (excluding the AK).

Remember, Gabe's decision to abandon the AK wasn't predicated upon any failure of the rifle to perform as a fighting tool. Gabe's decision to abandon the rifle was purely a business decision. He used the AK and trained others to use the AK for 7+ years before he attempted to make them. When he was unable to successfully make them, he abandon them and began his quest to find a replacement. I believe this is because he feels that if he builds the "ultimate fighting rifle" on another platform, to effectively sell it he must also adopt it for his own use.

As for add-ons making a rifle more useful... the military calls these handy devices "force multipliers". Lasers, magnified optics, RDS's, rails, flash suppressors, suppressors, vertical forend grips, etc. all are used by our military and most people who use them agree they improve the usefulness of the rifle.

Do you need a M4 with all the SOPMOD goodies? No. You can use an old Vietnam era AR15/M16 with a fixed carrying handle, triangular handguards, 20" barrel, iron sights, etc. if you choose. Which one would I prefer to have? Give me the M4 with the force multipliers that I believe would increase my hit probability or ease of use.

 

[Fordtough25]

Wow this is turning out to be a great thread, great answers everyone! I'm confident with my AK out to 500 yards with iron sights, less is better but I can hit out there with confidence. AR is the same way, although I find the rear peep sight on the AR better for long range work. I like both those platforms and I don't see myself getting any other style of combat rifle. I do have some WWII rifles that do great way out, but in a box magazine fed semi auto rifle the AK is my first grab. Then my AR.

 

[Que]

Thanks for the insight FA, I really appreciate it.

 

[rhino]

Eh, the way I see it, the SIG 556R is an AK with some of the AR ergonomics. That's good in my opinion.

 

[dom1104]

All I have to say is that getting old can be like watching a slow motion car wreck.

 

[Slow Hand]

I would say most black rifle buyers see the value in the AR's modularity hence the extreme popularity of the rifle. Need a rail? You have 30 to choose from ranging in price from affordable to expensive. Need a way to mount a flash light? You have more options than you can shake a stick at. Trying to find a mount for your RDS? No problem. Need a different pistol grip that fits your hand better? Again, ample choices. Want a match barrel and don't want to send it off to a gun smith to have it installed? The AR allows you to install a wide variety of barrels including light weight pencil barrels, SBR barrels, match barrels, etc. Thinking a gas system upgrade is for you because DI doesn't suit your needs? Osprey and others have drop in piston kits. Don't care for the Mapul backup sights your rifle came with? No problem, take your pick of something better. I could go on.

This may be part of gabe's thought process. It's hard to be a dictator over your fans and followers if they have a lot of choices. Seriously, who could sell an AR and honestly proclaim it to the the end all be all. Yes, a Colt, LMT or BCM AR may be a great AR, but if you put ten guys in a room with ar's and a brownells catalog you'll end up with ten variations of the perfect AR. Mayberry Suarez is afraid there would be too much free thought out of his control of he were to
Promote the AR. Or maybe he is worried that too many would be worried about finding the perfect piece of gear rather than working on technique; which is a valid concern.

 

[LPPOsecurity]

Personally I find that my AR has been better at putting the bullet in the same exact spot on every shot, where as the AK was a slightly varied but still just as accurate, and if they new 556R is improved and functional as claimed, it seems like it has the possibility of being a great gun, I like the concept behind it, if it's executed well in the new generation I may pick one up

 

[esrice]

@ esrice, FA, and SSG - I see what you all are saying. I guess my point is that I don't believe the average EDC guy out there can take the most tricked-out Colt AR on the market and be any better at engaging and destroying a target at 100-300 yards than they could with an AK. But, I could be wrong.

There is certainly some "its the shooter, not the gun" going on there. And I agree. But shooting at 100-300 is a game of accuracy, not manipulation. And most enhancements look to enhance control. As Tim already pointed out, part of the value is in the sheer number of options when it comes to those enhancements.

Here are some areas where I personally prefer an AR over an AK.

• Safety activation
• Magazine release
• Magazine insertion
• Reloading technique
• Non-reciprocating charging handle
• Recoil impulse

But that's just me. Take someone who's trained extensively with the AK and they'll run it very efficiently.

Esrice, I understand how the upgrades you mentioned can help a shooter perform better. However, placing the same options on both the AK and AR (minus the BAD Lever), which rifle will perform better in the hands of the average shooter?

Like you said, I think it all comes down to training. Pick one and train with it.

 

[shooter521]

Eh, the way I see it, the SIG 556R is an AK with some of the AR ergonomics.

Suarez refers to it as the "Swiss AK". I assert that the SIG-Sauer 556R is neither Swiss, nor an AK. Discuss amongst yourselves.

Mayberry Suarez is afraid there would be too much free thought out of his control of he were to
Promote the AR.

I think you've got it there; he'd have a hard time selling "his" AR configured "his" way, when there are so many plug-and-play (i.e. within the realm of most end users' technical skills) part/accessory options. An AK or a PTR or a 556R requires a bit more skilled labor to upgrade/modify/enhance, so he can more easily corner the market with his particular solution, so to speak.