From Lee to Dillon

[Broom_jm]

We live in a culture that laughs at debt and insists on flaunting our excesses. As for me and mine, we will gladly drive a paid-off Ford than carry the note on a Cadillac. This is coming from a guy that used to have <$25,000 in credit card debt and now has ZERO. If that means I use a blue-COLLAR reloading press, instead of a BLUE press...well, I can swallow my pride and do that. Especially when the ammo I turn out still goes bang and the bullet still hits right where I aimed.

I'll say it again: If you are shooting ~500 rounds per month or more, in pistol competition, then a Dillon is a smart choice. ANYTHING less than that, particularly if you mostly load man-sized rifle cartridges for big game hunting, you'd be far better off with a quality single-stage and a Lee Classic Turret. Aside from a great warranty, the only real justification for a Dillon press is turning out huge volumes of finished ammo...something I'm guessing 75% of the people who own them don't really need. For those folks, it's called "conspicuous consumption" and will be the downfall of the western world. <two cents>

 

[x10]

I think one of the points people miss is on the dillon I can sit down and KNOW the Dillon 650 is going to crank out ammo, I don't spend the 45 minutes messing with hokey plastic drive gears or little dog chians and all the other Low quality junk on the Lee's,

The real issue is TIME

If you read any of my disertations I went from a dillon SDB to a 650 Not that I shoot any more than I did when i had the SDB I have more commitments to my time.

I can sit down at the 650 and in 20 minutes load what I did in an hour withthe SDB so now I have the 40 minutes to pick up kids from Football/weight training, do my taxes, work on the wifes car.

I don't want to sound like an grouchy old man but Time is the most valued thing I have, Its the only thing I can't get more of.

Good equipment is time, When I was 22 and didn't have kids ect. I had lee equipment. I bought the repair gears in groups of 3 so that I had 9 of those little gears ready at all times, I had bought a whole lot of other parts so that they were laying there. I used to think a run of 300 rounds before I had to fix something on the Lee 1000 was good.

Then I bought a hornady projector, 10 times better press than the Lee, I would get alot more rounds before a break down, but I bought the shell kickers in quantity and had an extra drive gear and pawls on hand so that when they broke I could fix them. All it took was one case to not kick out of the projector and it bent the shell kicker and could break the drive gear or drive pawl. so I had them handy.

then I bought dillon. I keep the dillon repair kit around. but I find I dont' break too much on the dillon I loose little parts when I change calibers and I have bent a couple decaping pins. And I did have one breakdown that I had to call and order parts (dillon is not perfect just darn close) so in the years of dillon I've been down one time while the part came in, (can't remember what it was now)

But the Lee and the Hornady broke down enough I remember what thier problems were. So with Dillon my Down time has been almost zero. I can walk away from the dillon for a month and come back knowing it is going to work. I remember on the Lee 1000 I couldn't do that I had to go back and lube certian parts with dry lube after it sat or I would strip that plastic drive gear.

I'm not knocking Lee or Hornady's support. Lee had the drive gears available for order when I need one, Hornady took care of me also.

You guys can keep doing your analagies all you want and different solutions are right for different people.

The original post was " should I upgrade to a dillon?"

Across the board the answer has been yes the only thing the Lee owners are clinging too is that they didn't spend as much money on thier press and they are able to produce ammo.

cheap equipment will produce ammo.
Cheap equipment will have more down time.

The more interuptions you have in the reloading process the more likely you are to have a bad round or inconsistant ammo. Ask any production engineer. Interuptions in process produce bad results. Less interuptions are better products. It's such a known that Briggs and Stratton (which engines have improved over the years) no longer will sell an engine that went out of process. They scrap it instead of passing it on to the customer.

Doesn't matter if its reloading or drawing your pistol. Doing it the same way every time is important.

There you go. I can't say it better.

 

[billybob44]

x10 Is on the $$$$

^^^ Thank you for your outstanding post!!

This just about describes me to a tee.

My choice of "Blue" is the RL550B, but other than that,and me never owning a Lee press, I'm right there with you..Bill.

 

[Broom_jm]

Great post, x10...I agree with everything you said.

Setting aside all analogies...do you think most of the people who buy a Dillon press actually need the volume of ammo they can produce, or would a lesser quality, lower cost press serve their needs? Do you think folks should just buy the highest quality product available, regardless of any other determining factors?

Put another way: If a person needed to load 10 rounds per year, would you still suggest a Dillon? If a person only loaded 100 rounds per year...? What cannot be ignored in this equation is that a high-quality, high-VOLUME, progressive press like a Dillon XXX is only indicated for those who load quite a bit of ammunition.

I still contend that the majority of reloaders simply don't shoot enough rounds to justify the added expense. Maybe a poll is in order..."How many rounds of pistol and how many rounds of rifle ammo do you load per year?"

 

[Leo]

Broom has a point about need/want. Of course this is America, where we can have wants also, as long as we can pay for them. I never bought anything I could not pay for.
When I was in competition, between shooting matches, driving to them, preparing for them, and holding a job to pay for it all, time was at a premium. My shooting volume was such that powder was by the keg, I would buy bullets 10,000 at a time to get the discount. I would go in with three buddies and buy a ton of shot at a time, each man taking 500 lbs. Primers come in a 5000 piece sleeve. Shotgun hulls were stored in 30 Gallon trash bins and brass was in a row of 5 gallon buckets. I had two Dillons, one set up for small primer loads, the other set up for large primer loads. I also had 4 MEC's the same way. I kept them set up in a reloading room, with a pillow case over each to keep the dust off. I would very seldom pull the pillow case off for less than 1000 rounds. If I had a free afternoon, I was going to make 2000 plus reloads. Without the speed and dependablity of the Dillons, I would not have had time to eat or sleep, let alone enjoy other friendships. I do not think I could have done that with many other types of reloading equipment, except maybe the old star loaders. My equipment was not vanity. Oh, and by the way, I was in a position to do it all cash, and the truck I drove to matches was purchased cash also. (I am now married and cannot afford that lifestyle now, but am glad when I could)

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I've had Dillon for a couple of decades now.

I look at it like this, I appreciate the time that Dillon buys me.

What do you mean by that, Freeman?

I have found with Dillon that I do not have to fight my press and that saves me time. If the press malfs, I can send it back, now or in 20 years and that peace of mind and time helps me.

 

[kwatters]

if you want to talk about fiscal sense, my Dillon works without wasting time and resources. And at the end of the day, if I decide to not reload any more, they resell for 75% of your original investment easily. That makes perfect sense to me...

examples: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dillon-Prec...298?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43ad4a0d6a

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dillon-RL-5...657?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ebba873a1

 

[standslanted]

My loadmaster works on each pull of the handle. I still have time to visit this fourm, play with kids, go to work, take a $@!!, Hunt, Fish, tie my shoes....ohh yeah..and eat.

Lets see, I drive a newer Ford F150 (king ranch) and the wife drives her BMW X5. Both can get me to the same location. The BMW may be faster, but if it breaks down... believe me, the parts to fix it will cost you dearly.

 

[x10]

My loadmaster works on each pull of the handle. I still have time to visit this fourm, play with kids, go to work, take a $@!!, Hunt, Fish, tie my shoes....ohh yeah..and eat.

Lets see, I drive a newer Ford F150 (king ranch) and the wife drives her BMW X5. Both can get me to the same location. The BMW may be faster, but if it breaks down... believe me, the parts to fix it will cost you dearly.

wrong if the BMW was made by dillon the parts are free,

Drive on

 

[kwatters]

My loadmaster works on each pull of the handle. I still have time to visit this fourm, play with kids, go to work, take a $@!!, Hunt, Fish, tie my shoes....ohh yeah..and eat.

Lets see, I drive a newer Ford F150 (king ranch) and the wife drives her BMW X5. Both can get me to the same location. The BMW may be faster, but if it breaks down... believe me, the parts to fix it will cost you dearly.

I am glad you are happy with the Lee, to each his own. Just don't compare the Dillon to the BMW, unlike the BMW, the Dillon has a lifetime no BS warranty.

 

[standslanted]

I am glad you are happy with the Lee, to each his own. Just don't compare the Dillon to the BMW, unlike the BMW, the Dillon has a lifetime no BS warranty.

tushay

 

[skey01]

I drive a 1998 Subaru with 185000 miles, my wife a Toyota Camry with 212000 miles, I have no debt.. I reload on a Dillon progressive and a RCBS single stage.. I have listened to people knocking me for driving foreign cars for years.. I drive them because I have never bought one new and have driven them all for over 200,000 miles with no issues.. Which is why my choice is Dillon for progressive presses, no issues... At the end of the day buy what you want, it's YOUR choice, and YOUR money!!!

 

[Slim400]

I just wanted to give your response of how solid company Dillon I have been reloading the I was about 23 I am now 49 the first time that I ever don't we Dillon I had purchased a 550 out of a local trader paper here in Indianapolis the powder hopper were cracks around the top of the so I called Dillon and explained my problem I received the same response they would not sell me one be glad to ship me one for free and just quite frankly over the years bushing set the fulcrum points occasionally the other thing that I would suggest to you is talk to Dillon about what press is right for you if you primarily load pistol cartridges I would tell you collect up a square deal B fantastic pistol press and I'm going to be very honest I have used several Dillon products and yet to find one that does not perform as advertised

 

[EvilElmo]

IMHO the best thing you can base your decision on is the number of rounds you load and how much you can stand to spend. Personally I just can't muster the will to spend the money on a 650 when the LoadMaster can accomplish the same job. But then I only load a couple of thousand rounds per year in all my calibers combined. For me the Lee makes a lot more sense. It may have parts that wear out but I just don't use it enough for that to be a problem. I can replace my entire setup 3 times over for the cost of the Dillon and I'm never going to use it enough to need even one replacement.

 

[Cam]

I can replace my entire setup 3 times over for the cost of the Dillon and I'm never going to use it enough to need even one replacement.

True. But I'll never have to replace my setup even 1 time. Come to think of it, my kids will never have to replace my setup. My strong suspicion is their kids will never have to replace my setup.

That is but one of many reasons I spent the money on a Dillon.

 

[Broom_jm]

True. But I'll never have to replace my setup even 1 time. Come to think of it, my kids will never have to replace my setup. My strong suspicion is their kids will never have to replace my setup.

That is but one of many reasons I spent the money on a Dillon.

Take the money you saved by purchasing a Lee Classic Turret instead of a Dillon and put it in an interest-bearing account or an annuity. By the time the Lee breaks, you'll have earned more than it takes to buy another complete setup.

For the folks that bought a Dillon...you paid up-front for a great product and a great warranty. Other guys like to keep their money in the bank. Who's right? That's all up to the individual, but if you aren't loading 2,000+ rounds per year, the Dillon is simply more machine than you need and it robs you of the pleasure of spending time at the bench.

 

[x10]

I think we've run into the Walmart mentality, which I think is killing America. The idea of quality has been so tainted by the $ sign we (me included) have been forced to change our way of looking at things.

Walmart (analagy) has spent billions of dollars over the years to beat us down when it comes to quality vs. $.

Don't jump on this and say I"m a rich guy (I'm not) but it takes a leap of faith to buy something for 50% more the "does the same thing" as what you can get Brand X for.

This discussion is at an Impass until people decide they want more for thier money even though the rough end result is the same we can't proceed.

A mature buyer is a product of time , experience and Desire for perfection. Not every that is mature is a mature person and not everybody thats new to the sport is not mature. (don't read more into that than is meant).

I've spouted my theory of the evolution of a gun nut there are stages and while most pass through all the stages not all progress past certian stages. The cliff notes are

Starting into the sport you want quantity and because the all go boom or for reloders they go kachump then you buy buy buy.

many people stay right here and are happy (god bless them)

Then next they start looking at the targets and notice an X in the middle and wonder why thier boom machine doesn't eat it out, Or worse yet shoot something that can hit the x and find out that they have the ability but not the equipment.

Then they sell a couple cheap boomers and get one mediocre boomer or kachinker and they notice that they can eat up the 9 and 10 ring all day long then maybe kids or a job comes along and they get stuck here by choice or by circumstance.

Then one day they get a good deal on premium equipment and that screws them hard then. Now they know what they didn't know before. The gloves come off and the quantity may go down but the qaulity and the time spent with it goes up.

Now some have money to start with and buy top line and don't have the smashed fingers that it takes to do some of the learning

Some get the top end stuff and training and practice and do well.

But then I wander all over the subject at hand.

At the end of the ramble there is nothing someone that has been through the whole process can do to convince someone who is convinced they can do the same with low end equipment they have to teach themselves. And they may never learn and because of the band wagon mentality they don't want to let people leave thier bandwagon and the people on the other high quality band wagon just want people to believe them because they learned it the hardway but over the years forgot the details and like our teachers said in grade school we can't put a funnel in your ear and pour in the knowledge you have to want to learn it.

So if you see someone leaving your band wagon you have to help them the best you can. If you think holding them on your bandwagon is right then you have to do it. If you think pulling them off another bandwagon and pulling them on yours, you have to do it.

The individual has to look at what works for him.

Best answer go over to someone elses House, shooting range ect and use thier equipment and find out what works before dumping the $$


(yes I rambled and maybe I should be put in a straight jacket)

 

[Broom_jm]

Some folks suggest a "Walmart" effect and blame that for products like the Lee equipment that works and doesn't cost much. I guess they forget that Lee has been making very good, affordable tools since before Walmart existed?

I call it the "line of credit" effect where folks don't bat an eye at owing ten thousand dollars or more on a series of credit cards. They have forgotten the true value of money, which is NOT pretty things to impress your friends or feed your ego, but long-term security and the peace of mind that comes from living well within your means. Fifty years ago, conventional wisdom in real estate was to buy a house that cost no more than 3 times your annual household income. These days, lots of people were buying houses that were 5 times their income, if not more. Look where that got us.

There was also a time when most consumer items, like Lee tools of today, were high-quality and also affordable. That was back when nobody was foolish enough to spend ridiculous amounts of money on frivolous items. If you wanted to sell anything at all, it had to work well, last for years, and not cost an arm and a leg...or folks simply would not buy it.

For those who do not understand this concept, talk to someone who knows what it was like during the Great Depression or during the years leading up to WWII. When you don't have a choice, you learn to make do with what you have, work a little harder and choose common sense over prideful notions. Those conditions created the greatest generation this country has ever known and they built this nation, and the wealth we currently enjoy, by being smart with their money. They certainly did not spend 1 or 2% of their annual income on an over-the-top tool for reloading more ammo in one hour than they would shoot in half a year. In fact, they didn't shoot thousands of rounds per year because it was considered wasteful.

In many cases, today's insistence on only the highest quality, most expensive goods, is not warranted in any way, but is a fool-hardy mindset that has our country in a tail-spin. You can't spend your way out of a financial mess, but that's exactly where we're at. Being frugal and fiscally responsible is NOT in vogue. Fortunately, I could not care less and will continue to be happy with tools that "suffice", even if they don't meet the standards of someone who is proud to have more debt than I do.

Sometimes "good enough" is exactly that.

 

[Jmak]

I have used a Lee turret for years. It is paid for and works well. I understand Dillon is top of the line though. I have loaded 380 pistol ammo all the way to 458 wm and all worked.

 

[Cam]

Take the money you saved by purchasing a Lee Classic Turret instead of a Dillon and put it in an interest-bearing account or an annuity. By the time the Lee breaks, you'll have earned more than it takes to buy another complete setup.

For the folks that bought a Dillon...you paid up-front for a great product and a great warranty. Other guys like to keep their money in the bank. Who's right? That's all up to the individual, but if you aren't loading 2,000+ rounds per year, the Dillon is simply more machine than you need and it robs you of the pleasure of spending time at the bench.

Great idea.....but the Lee Pro 1000 press I had broke in several areas before the first year of having it came to a close with constant adjustments and inconsistent ammo from round to round during the times when it DID actually work. Not going to make alot of money on that interest bearing account in that amount of time.

I load alot of .40 S&W to the tune of about 6k per year of just that caliber. With the seating depth being pretty unforgiving in this round due to enormous pressure spikes with very small changes in seating depth, the inconsistency of that Lee was, for me at least, a source of concern safety-wise.

I couldn't care less about impressing anyone by having a Dillon press and I apologize if I've misunderstood your posts on the topic. I can say that my guns, my fingers and my facial features (as well as those of my kids who also shoot this ammo) are well worth the price of consistent equipment that will produce the exact same round at #500 as round #1 during a session. If that isn't being smart with my money then I guess I'm ok with being seen by others as frivolous.

I do understand your point of view, this is just my reasoning.