Found a coyote den with pups

[Jason R. Bruce]

Having observed Anatolian Shepard dogs for the past year and during what was the coldest, longest winter on record here in WI, I will have one or two but not where I live at the moment. Hunting Coyotes to protect livestock without an Anatolian is like owning a gun for self defense and living in a house with no deadbolts.

There are other breeds and frankly an Anatolian may not be well suited to Indiana but from what I observed, they do proactively seek out predators. I would not want to be waist deep in snow and have one of them fast approaching me.

You hit the nail on the head and ironically I'm limping today from an encounter with an Anatolian yesterday evening. On my way to check a flock of lambing sheep I notified the producer of my visit and debated whether his daughter should go lock the dog up... we opted to leave him out. After parking up front and navigating a few gates I hadn't encountered the dog so I figured she opted to pen the dog anyway. About halfway through my inspection I noticed a large dugout under a dilapidated barn so I crossed a fence and plopped down on my knees... where I found myself face to face with a sleeping 5 year Anatolian. Like a scene from a horror flick, he lunged his head upright just as I got my hands down. I started screaming "Eaaassssyyyy"and sprinted like Forest Gump around the barn. As I hurdled the panel fence I drew my 1911 22lr and looked back to find he hadn't cleared the fence yet... one round in the dirt sent him and 80 sheep over the hill. I sprained something in my knee and pinched a hole in my undies, but no stitches.

The facility described in my previous post is home to a lama, two Anatolians, a Great Pyrenees and a relentless old walker hound. The calling & shooting described above was done within 100 yards of these animals. Even with the guardian animals, sheep fences, hot wires and security lights that flock was ravaged last spring. I think one of the main downfalls our producers face is habitat. The terrain is often steep, vegetation surrounding the pastures are thick, and since we're 85% wooded the pastures are often tucked in the center of great coyote country. The guardian animals do alleviate feral dog damage but they're no match for persistent coyotes. If I can avoid a mauling after coming face to face with the Anatolian then a pack of coyotes can surely have their way with the sheep around him in the dark. Using fences and terrain to their advantage, coyotes can pick those lambs up like candy. They're incredibly defenseless critters no bigger than a football, their saving grace is that most coyotes prefer to dine with less confrontation. Once you have a group of coyotes that takes up this line of work it takes busted primers to break them of it. I hung a couple trail cameras on vacant pastures so we'll see what's poking around next week.

 

[churchmouse]

Sure. Dogs are a huge factor in sheep depredation in this area, on a more widespread basis than coyotes in my opinion.

I've called predators (coyotes, fox, bobcats, lions) in sheep pastures in TX, OK, AZ, CO & WY and coyotes are the main culprit out there, but back here... I think as many lambs are lost to dogs & birds as coyotes. Admittedly that's a loaded statement. The producers that lose sheep to coyotes, lose a lot of sheep to a few coyotes. Once the resident coyotes lock-in on that flock as a resource, they'll milk it hard until you ventilate them. On the flip side, nearly every sheep producer loses a few sheep to dogs... so statistically dogs are a huge problem here.

Dog kills, relating to sheep, are much more gruesome and entirely wasteful thrill kills. You learn to spot a dog kill from a good distance, it's a blood bath and sometimes requires putting adult sheep down. Coyote kills are usually precise & swift and focused on lambs. The exception being July/August kills where pups are learning to hunt, which can result in a handful of lambs with mangled faces and swollen throats. It takes them a few trials to exert the right amount of aggression & power to kill their prey (on deer, sheep or rabbits).

A few years ago I had a sheep producer ask me to put down a couple mortally mangled lambs for him before heading deeper for the offending coyotes. I wasn't about to discharge 22-250 rounds into his flock so I set out on foot. After hearing the crack of my denning hammer he said "I guess it's true... to a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Nature can be ugly, it isn't for everybody.

Thanks for the response. I am showing this to some dog lovers that think I am a Satan spawn for helping friends hunt Ferrell dog packs on their property. They refuse to believe dogs capable of this. I know differently having been chased by a pack. Not been in the woods unarmed since then.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

but back here... I think as many lambs are lost to dogs & birds as coyotes.

What kind of birds kill lambs in Indiana?

I have seen several goats and sheep (and one cow, a few calfs and a chicken here and there) lost to what I am fairly sure was coyotes or dogs, but never thought about us having a bird problem.

 

[Zoub]

You hit the nail on the head and ironically I'm limping today from an encounter with an Anatolian yesterday evening. On my way to check a flock of lambing sheep I notified the producer of my visit and debated whether his daughter should go lock the dog up... we opted to leave him out. After parking up front and navigating a few gates I hadn't encountered the dog so I figured she opted to pen the dog anyway. About halfway through my inspection I noticed a large dugout under a dilapidated barn so I crossed a fence and plopped down on my knees... where I found myself face to face with a sleeping 5 year Anatolian. Like a scene from a horror flick, he lunged his head upright just as I got my hands down. I started screaming "Eaaassssyyyy"and sprinted like Forest Gump around the barn. As I hurdled the panel fence I drew my 1911 22lr and looked back to find he hadn't cleared the fence yet... one round in the dirt sent him and 80 sheep over the hill. I sprained something in my knee and pinched a hole in my undies, but no stitches.

The facility described in my previous post is home to a lama, two Anatolians, a Great Pyrenees and a relentless old walker hound. The calling & shooting described above was done within 100 yards of these animals. Even with the guardian animals, sheep fences, hot wires and security lights that flock was ravaged last spring. I think one of the main downfalls our producers face is habitat. The terrain is often steep, vegetation surrounding the pastures are thick, and since we're 85% wooded the pastures are often tucked in the center of great coyote country. The guardian animals do alleviate feral dog damage but they're no match for persistent coyotes. If I can avoid a mauling after coming face to face with the Anatolian then a pack of coyotes can surely have their way with the sheep around him in the dark. Using fences and terrain to their advantage, coyotes can pick those lambs up like candy. They're incredibly defenseless critters no bigger than a football, their saving grace is that most coyotes prefer to dine with less confrontation. Once you have a group of coyotes that takes up this line of work it takes busted primers to break them of it. I hung a couple trail cameras on vacant pastures so we'll see what's poking around next week.

Your nickname is now Lucky. The one thing I have noticed up here with these dogs in general is they do prefer not to have a close encounter with strange humans. They don't seem as forgiving with other critters.

This winter after the river froze up we stared getting visits from a large Great Pyrenees. I need to go find the owners and talk to them. Its one of two homes down stream but a 10 mile drive for me to get there so I just have yet to do it. Having run ins with a dog that size after dark is not enjoyable. His last two visits before Ice out I happened to catch him both times and he got a load of birdshot in the dirt behind him. My concern is he will forget his lesson between now and next winter. I keep one round of birdshot ready with each shotgun so I have the option to scare him when I have time to get a shotgun.

What has been really interesting is getting to know his habits from his tracks in the snow. He will use cover and terrain, pop up to high ground to do a sit and watch, then drop back down for a closer approach or even ambush on small game. I have been outside and the temp was 30 below and I turn a corner to see him 100-200 yards out, sitting in the middle of the frozen river watching me. I don't have a problem with the dog in general but I know none of my bird dogs would survive a confrontation with him and he is getting a bit too bold.

I am pretty sure what originally drew him in was a coyote pack nearby and I have not heard a peep from them in months. I did however hear one hellacious fight early on and out here in winter you can have a conversation with someone a half mile away when the river is froze over and leaves are off the trees. I think he tore up a coyote or two. The wolves are a bit farther off and I think if he comes into their den areas he will be toast.

 

[churchmouse]

Your nickname is now Lucky. The one thing I have noticed up here with these dogs in general is they do prefer not to have a close encounter with strange humans. They don't seem as forgiving with other critters.

This winter after the river froze up we stared getting visits from a large Great Pyrenees. I need to go find the owners and talk to them. Its one of two homes down stream but a 10 mile drive for me to get there so I just have yet to do it. Having run ins with a dog that size after dark is not enjoyable. His last two visits before Ice out I happened to catch him both times and he got a load of birdshot in the dirt behind him. My concern is he will forget his lesson between now and next winter. I keep one round of birdshot ready with each shotgun so I have the option to scare him when I have time to get a shotgun.

What has been really interesting is getting to know his habits from his tracks in the snow. He will use cover and terrain, pop up to high ground to do a sit and watch, then drop back down for a closer approach or even ambush on small game. I have been outside and the temp was 30 below and I turn a corner to see him 100-200 yards out, sitting in the middle of the frozen river watching me. I don't have a problem with the dog in general but I know none of my bird dogs would survive a confrontation with him and he is getting a bit too bold.

I will bet you that if the owner of the dog lets him free range your visit will be fruitless and you will have to end the dog next winter. If this happens the owner is going to come to you looking for his stupid dog. Do as you will with your situation I am just relating to human nature.

 

[Harleyrider_50]

Your nickname is now Lucky. The one thing I have noticed up here with these dogs in general is they do prefer not to have a close encounter with strange humans. They don't seem as forgiving with other critters.

This winter after the river froze up we stared getting visits from a large Great Pyrenees. I need to go find the owners and talk to them. Its one of two homes down stream but a 10 mile drive for me to get there so I just have yet to do it. Having run ins with a dog that size after dark is not enjoyable. His last two visits before Ice out I happened to catch him both times and he got a load of birdshot in the dirt behind him. My concern is he will forget his lesson between now and next winter. I keep one round of birdshot ready with each shotgun so I have the option to scare him when I have time to get a shotgun.

What has been really interesting is getting to know his habits from his tracks in the snow. He will use cover and terrain, pop up to high ground to do a sit and watch, then drop back down for a closer approach or even ambush on small game. I have been outside and the temp was 30 below and I turn a corner to see him 100-200 yards out, sitting in the middle of the frozen river watching me. I don't have a problem with the dog in general but I know none of my bird dogs would survive a confrontation with him and he is getting a bit too bold.

I am pretty sure what originally drew him in was a coyote pack nearby and I have not heard a peep from them in months. I did however hear one hellacious fight early on and out here in winter you can have a conversation with someone a half mile away when the river is froze over and leaves are off the trees. I think he tore up a coyote or two. The wolves are a bit farther off and I think if he comes into their den areas he will be toast.

They great dogs.......they size can be intimidate'n......big baby's, fer the most part.....

http://www.polyvore.com/cgi/img-thing?.out=jpg&size=l&tid=47348681

https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.pupcity.com/_old/08010102007705_1.jpg

http://www.thehappywoofer.com/images/great_pyrenees_3.jpg

great w/ kids......'

 

[Zoub]

I will bet you that if the owner of the dog lets him free range your visit will be fruitless and you will have to end the dog next winter. If this happens the owner is going to come to you looking for his stupid dog. Do as you will with your situation I am just relating to human nature.

You are correct and that is why I have not gone down there yet. I am also sure they are well aware of the shots fired situation involving their dog too. What saved him so far is the very first time he showed up, it was like 35-40 below and they were out looking for him. I could hear them calling for him from about a 1/2 mile away. I called back telling them to keep calling for him. The sound carries on the frozen tundra! Eventually he shifted his focus from me to them.

I am 99% sure they know about the shots fired over their dog. Last month the barber in town brought it up with me. I said I don't recall having mentioned that situation to him or anyone else for that matter................of course I know exactly who I told about it. Word got out the dog is on borrowed time.

 

[churchmouse]

You are correct and that is why I have not gone down there yet. I am also sure they are well aware of the shots fired situation involving their dog too. What saved him so far is the very first time he showed up, it was like 35-40 below and they were out looking for him. I could hear them calling for him from about a 1/2 mile away. I called back telling them to keep calling for him. The sound carries on the frozen tundra! Eventually he shifted his focus from me to them.

I am 99% sure they know about the shots fired over their dog. Last month the barber in town brought it up with me. I said I don't recall having mentioned that situation to him or anyone else for that matter................of course I know exactly who I told about it. Word got out the dog is on borrowed time.

With that in the wind they should keep Fido at home then dontcha think.

Dogs are by nature just animals. They revert quickly when out in the woods. I have seen the damage they can do and have had the displeasure of putting more than a few down when the pack up and start a rampage.

 

[Zoub]

With that in the wind they should keep Fido at home then dontcha think.

Dogs are by nature just animals. They revert quickly when out in the woods. I have seen the damage they can do and have had the displeasure of putting more than a few down when the pack up and start a rampage.

Yup, but the ice is out so I wont know for sure until next winter OR Fido crosses the water. If he becomes a water crosser its over for him, there wont be a next winter. I am still not 100% sure he lives in the area year round or they are holiday and weekend warriors who let him run when they come up. I just drive down there and look. There are only 2 year round homes in that area.

There are no dog packs here, the wolves kill them in short order. Hounds and any huntng dogs that tend to run are always at great risk. The bear dogs that run too close to a den site get wasted inside of 30 minutes. They will find a skull and radio collar.

 

[yote hunter]

I think what you done was a good thing, so thanks and for those who don't just do the math... out of that litter 7 pups say 5 were females and then throw 5 pups and out of the next litter say 2 are females and they have a litter and they throw 5 pups and so on, thats alot of damn yotes anyway you look at it.... All in all job well done, I would of done the same thing.... It would of been cool to have them mounted if the cost wasn't so much, would of made a cool mount, a litter of pups along with a adult female with them... That would of been way cool....

 

[WWalker]

Predator FAQ

 

[jimbobcooters]

I would have done the same thing.

 

[Mark 1911]

I don't blame you, and neither does the DNR:

DNR: Coyotes

Landowners, or a person with written permission from a landowner, may take coyotes year-round on private property by snaring, trapping or shooting without a permit from the DNR. A landowner does not need a permit to take coyotes on his/her property by one of these methods, but a hunting or trapping license is required to hunt or trap coyotes on land other than your own.

 

[Bravo-4-2]

The emasculation of America will eventually be the downfall of this great nation. Glad to see you haven't been snipped. The only good coyote is a dead one. You did the correct thing and those who will benefit tomorrow from your action thank you in advance.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I snipe the adults anytime I can but I would NOT mess with a litter if I stumbled upon it. Thats just me....Im cold as ice when I have to be but I like being able to sleep at night and look at myself in the mirror every day without having to look down in shame.

But its your property, do what you want.

I agree, I'd never be able to do that, either, for the same reasons.

I've hunted, trapped, fished, and I've even fed literally thousands of mice to my snakes (many of them pre-killed by me). But I can't imagine killing a helpless baby creature for no good reason.

 

[Zoub]

I'm learning a lot in this thread.

Here is another thing to learn:

The DNR tells you wolves are less likely to attack your dog if it is on a leash (being held by a human). Define less likely. I have heard the stories up here and seen some of the aftermath. I would apply the same logic to coyotes now. I don't walk my dog on a leash, I can control her with verbal commands. I walk my dog with a gun, but again she is well trained. I carry for the puppies.

I keep a Glock in the Kitchen dedicated to walking the dog, and to the garage, or anything else outside after dark. I wont walk or hunt my dog without a handgun on me. We usually go for a walk before 5am and now you can see around here from about 4am but most of the year it is dark. When it is dark I carry a small spotlight, a surefire is only for backup. I want to see things before they come in range and with a spotlight my effective range also doubles. It also tends to make critters think twice. I am not on a nature walk when I walk the dog and I am not looking to meet and make new friends at that time.

 

[remauto1187]

If the coyotes were with an acquaintance who knocked on your door in the middle of the night, you would have had no problem shooting them.

Give it up... All we hear is crickets after your LAME A$$ cracks.

 

[bwframe]

Give it up... All we hear is crickets after your LAME A$$ cracks.

These crickets?
https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...3-first-time-i-had-draw-my-handgun-state.html

 

[Zoub]

Now we go from Humans hunting Coyotes to Gringos hunting Mexicans. Although some Mexicans are Coyotes so maybe it's the same thing. Fast and Fur-eee-us.

 

[Dead Duck]

Fast and Fur-eee-us.