Florida stand your ground. Dont play stupid games

[jkaetz]

It's not an insinuation. When you carry a firearm, you assume a greater responsibility. This event should have fallen under the "Mind Your Own Business" category, but he chose to act and is responsible, in part, for the consequences. Had he done nothing, a man who is now dead would probably be alive. At worst, he "deserved" a citation for a parking violation. Had a law enforcement officer presented that ticket to him or his girlfriend, I doubt anyone would have been "thrown to the ground".

Joe Meter Maid is responsible for a death. I call it manslaughter.

Got ya, so the premise is that you're carrying a firearm and should be avoiding confrontation. I won't argue with that.

 

[Route 45]

I wasn’t there, don’t know what was going through Captain Sava-Spots mind at the time, but it wouldn’t be hard to articulate fear for his life. He doesn’t have the benefit of rewind, fast forward, or pause that we have a week later. He was bum rushed and knocked to the ground, he doesn’t have to wait for the blows to commence from there on out.

There were 2 separate reported incidents where the Captain had threatened to shoot someone in the past, so it's probably not hard to guess what was going through his mind.

This idiot will meet his match one day.

 

[rhino]

So we're in agreement the guy looked like Abe Vigoda? Keep in mind Abe Vigoda was 51 when he played Sal Tessio in The Godfather.

I'm 53 and at that time he looked like he could be my current grandfather of not great grandfather! The dude has looked 137 years old since the first time we saw him.

 

[mergatroid]

Just read this the other day.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/mcglockton-shooting-gun-owners-outraged/

 

[KellyinAvon]

I'm 53 and at that time he looked like he could be my current grandfather of not great grandfather! The dude has looked 137 years old since the first time we saw him.

Abe Vigoda wasn't carded for buying beer after 2nd grade. He looked old when TV was in black and white.

 

[dusty88]

There were 2 separate reported incidents where the Captain had threatened to shoot someone in the past, so it's probably not hard to guess what was going through his mind.

And that has almost zero credibility.

On one hand, this could have indeed been the guy that always does that stupid thing and everyone who knows him is now not shocked it finally turned to catastrophe.

On the other hand...some people will shoot their mouth off after an incident like this just to get attention and then a few more that will repeat it and pretend it happened to them. Facts become distorted in the telephone game even when people intend to tell the truth. When they don't, it gets really nutso.

We agree this guy's behavior towards parking violations was not a good plan. But what do you expect of the other idiot driver who blocked a handicap spot? Defensive and entitled maybe? Any chance he would easily make up that this guy threatened to shoot him?

This idiot will meet his match one day.

i believe he has. His life will never be the same, no matter the legal or civil suit outcome here.

 

[HoosierLife]

The members of the entitled generation will go where they want and do what they want. If you question or challenge them when they park in a handicapped spot, cut in line, cut you off in traffic, run stop signs, or speed through school zones or neighborhoods, you should expect that they will attack you verbally or physically.
Be like Elsa: Let it go.
If you want to point it out to law enforcement, go ahead, but realize they will retaliate if they learn your name and address.

The only entertainment is when two entitled people want the same thing.

Speaking of speeding. There’s this older guy that lives 4-5 houses down from me. Worst kept up house on the block. Anyway, his grandson and friends fly down the street.

One flew down the street yesterday when myself and my 3 year old toddler were only a few feet away pulling the trash to the curb.

I waited until he got out of the car and hollered, “Slow it down. There are kids in this neighborhood.”

To which he responds with a dismissive wave of the arm.

Then I followed up with, “Do it again and I’ll call the cops.”

Took my son back inside and went to grab my phone to take a pic of the license plate. He had already left before I got there.


Now it my opinion that Men keep a country safe. And those same Men are responsible for keeping their neighborhoods safe.


Could things have escalted? Maybe. Should I just pipe down and let these young 20 somethings not receive any push back for their entitlement?

I’m not saying speeding should result in the death penalty, though their recklessness could result in someone else’s death.

Thoughts?

 

[dusty88]

Speaking of speeding. There’s this older guy that lives 4-5 houses down from me. Worst kept up house on the block. Anyway, his grandson and friends fly down the street.

One flew down the street yesterday when myself and my 3 year old toddler were only a few feet away pulling the trash to the curb.

I waited until he got out of the car and hollered, “Slow it down. There are kids in this neighborhood.”

To which he responds with a dismissive wave of the arm.

Then I followed up with, “Do it again and I’ll call the cops.”

Took my son back inside and went to grab my phone to take a pic of the license plate. He had already left before I got there.


Now it my opinion that Men keep a country safe. And those same Men are responsible for keeping their neighborhoods safe.


Could things have escalted? Maybe. Should I just pipe down and let these young 20 somethings not receive any push back for their entitlement?

I’m not saying speeding should result in the death penalty, though their recklessness could result in someone else’s death.

Thoughts?

It's tough to decide whether or not to talk to someone because you don't know if it will be productive or counterproductive. Sometimes police will patrol an area if you tell them there has been a dangerous speeding problem. But so now these folks would likely know it was you that called. And yet, if you don't try talking first, you miss what might be a good opportunity to solve the problem by simply calling it to people's attention.

The biggest similar conundrum we have is with neighbors who constantly let dogs run loose. And same problem.... if we talk to them and do nothing then eventually haul their dog to the shelter, they'll know who took it there. I've had mixed results approaching people. Our next door neighbor was a problem for a few years. He had dogs who would come over and poop on our front porch (we have dogs but have them trained to go out farther in the weeds. One of his dogs stole my kids shoe while she was on the trampoline. And just in general I really don't know what someone else's dog is going to do to my property or what diseases they bring around.

His dogs would get hit by cars but he would get another. He really didn't take it seriously until we got chickens. He does love animals in general and he's a big-hearted guy, so when he had 2 crazy Boxers that chased everything, he finally got an invisible fence. He just didn't see his dogs as a serious problem before and he is otherwise a good neighbor.

Now some people are real jerks about it. I had one Pit Bull start following myself and my dog while I was out jogging. It followed me for miles, all the way home. I loaded it up in the pickup, took it back and suggested that they might need to fence the dog. The owner angrily retorted that "he wouldn't have left if you hadn't came by". Most of these dogs who are loose eventually get injured or killed, but the owner just gets another. So in most cases talking to them hasn't helped. I have had to pepper spray 2 loose dogs: one of them confronted a visiting friend of mine who was just trying to walk by and the spraying kept him from coming out after that. Another one had chased us on our bicycles. The owner was mad at first, until we explained that it wasn't just about getting bit. A dog that runs into a bike wheel can cause someone to have a serious crash, and possibly also injure or kill the dog. That particular owner started confining the dog.

I think if I know the person and think they are decent, I make a polite attempt to talk. Otherwise I would decide if it's something wherein I can quietly call the authorities. These days sometimes video cameras are also an option for misbehavior.

I think there is also a cultural change about the expectation of people handling problems without calling in law enforcement. I know my dad tried to take matters into his own hands because it just seemed the sensible thing to do. He was a farmer. There was one neighbor whose livestock was always getting out and eating other people's crops. These folks were not in good financial condition, so the legal method of asking for damages was pointless. After a few occasions, my dad simply told them if it happened again he was going to load up the stock and get what he could for them at the market. I don't recall the folks thinking that they would charge him for theft, though in today's world I'm pretty sure that would be people's knee-jerk reaction or at least there would be some big debate about whether or not it was proper.

One of the few times I remember my dad being angry was when a thief hit my brother. My brother, who was about 16 at the time, happened to surprise a guy trying to steal my dad's power tools from our farm shed about 1/2 mi from our house. The thief punched my brother then took off. My dad who was then pretty strong, about 39 at the time, and perhaps scary looking drove over to the thief's house. They were 20-somethings. My dad owned a gun but didn't take it. He took a baseball bat though. The way I heard it, he simply scared the crap out of them and told them that if they ever touched his family again he would kill them. I think he meant it, though I've never seen him hit anything in my entire life. No one at the time ever thought to suggest he should call the cops instead. I've never really thought about it that way until now. I suppose that could have turned deadly, but I think criminals then were a little more scared of authority figures, including middle aged farmers who they pissed off. Or maybe that's just a misperception on my part?

 

[eldirector]

IMHO, there is a fine line, and a big difference, between confronting someone and escalating a situation. When the first words out of one's mouth are expletives, it is being escalated. If one is calm and firm, it is not. If the other party decides to go ballistic, it is time to walk away.

 

[IndyTom]

One thing that it seems is being glossed over is that the shooter was yelling at the woman AND two small children were in the car. It is one thing to have someone getting in your girlfriend's face, it is another to have that altercation taking place that close to your other two small children. Not justifying anything, but, for me, at least, that sort of nonsense taking place near my kids changes the response level.

 

[Randy Harris]

Getting in here way late but....

We essentially have a busy body "parking lot avenger" who berates someone for parking in a handicap spot. He then becomes the victim of an aggravated assault and battery when he is blindsided and knocked to the ground by her boyfriend . Our busy body then draws his gun and challenges the boyfriend who BACKS AWAY. He then decides to shoot the guy as he is still backing away.

1. Mind your own business. Stop being a busybody crusader. Who commissioned you as the handicap spot patrol? Is reading someone the riot act over a parking space really all that important?

2. Did you ever think of maybe TALKING to the guy who you find arguing with your girlfriend instead of just essentially "sucker punching " him? Might this have turned out differently if he'd come out and said "Hey man, sorry, we'll be gone in a minute" or even yelling at him to "Shut the F up and back off" instead of just leveling the guy without even talking to him?

3. Ask yourself what are you really willing to kill someone over. Our parking lot avenger essentially ends up killing a guy over a PARKING SPOT. And that goes both ways..... If the guy who got knocked down had hit his head on the pavement and died then the other guy would have killed someone in an argument over...a PARKING SPOT. Grow the hell up and act like human beings!

4. What are you willing to die over? I'm sure we're all chivalrous men who would die to protect our significant other ....but she was just in an ARGUMENT...the first guy was not beating, raping, or stabbing her...he was just TALKING RUDELY to her. Step in and diffuse it with your words. But the boyfriend couldn't keep his emotions in check and interjected himself into an argument he was not an original party to and turned that into aggravated assault and then got shot and killed for it... again...you might try TALKING to the other guy first instead of acting like a damn street hoodlum or an animal. At least make an effort to deescalate. Then if HE escalates it then fine ...but by escalating the way he did he ends up dying in a pool of his own blood on the floor of a convenience store in front of his kids...why? Because he couldn't keep his ***** together and flew off the handle and decked some dude for TALKING RUDELY to his girlfriend. How'd that work out for you? Are you really willing to die over an argument about a parking spot? THINK before you act.

5. There are no victims here. NONE. The girlfriend is a selfish idiot for parking in a handicap spot when other spots were available. The parking lot avenger is an idiot for going about armed and confronting people over a damn parking spot. Use some common sense dude.You are setting the stage for this to happen by being a busybody....The boyfriend is an idiot for flat out committing unjustified aggravated assault and if he hadn't died he'd likely have been convicted in court of the aggravated assault ...but instead the parking lot avenger killed him out of fear aggression. If the parking lot protector had simply held him at gunpoint (or even run him off) and called the cops then dude who died would likely be a resident of the state for the assault he committed on video....not taking up space in the vault at the morgue.

6. If this did go to trial and I'm on the jury the parking lot avenger is getting a guilty verdict....you can't shoot people once the threat is over. If you challenge them and they back away then they are no longer a lethal threat. By drawing the gun and threatening him you are asking for compliance (for him to stop) . Once you get that compliance you cannot then shoot them for not complying.....I'll be surprised if the state does not pursue this in court. Was he justified in drawing? I'd say yes...he was...was he justified in shooting after the boyfriend backs off ? No...he was not.

 

[Trigger Time]

IMHO, there is a fine line, and a big difference, between confronting someone and escalating a situation. When the first words out of one's mouth are expletives, it is being escalated. If one is calm and firm, it is not. If the other party decides to go ballistic, it is time to walk away.

This is true.
I have been guilty of using the expletives when confronting someone before. I truly try not to, but I use expletives speaking anyways so it happens when I'm mad too. However I try not to use them at the person. So I mean I dont call them names. I may ask them if they are ****ing stupid though.
It takes a lot for me to say something to someone. I truly do try to stay out of other peoples business and try not to start a confrontation but sometimes yes peoples behavior does need called out and stopped. I cant simply Stand by and do nothing sometimes and sometimes it may not even be something the police can do but it needs called out. The police arent our baby sitters, we have a responsibility as citizens to control what is acceptible and not within our community. I do always have in the back of my mind, what if this turns violent and in today's society where nut cases freely walk among us and some are heralded as social justice heros by certain factions, it's a possibility. But no one has the right to get violent with someone just for verbally opposing their actions. That is criminal and I will respond accordingly. If it is going to go there, I will no longer be concerned with politeness and I will end the threat to myself or others with whatever force is appropriate.

 

[lonehoosier]

Don’t know if this was posted yet but good points either way.

[video=youtube_share;8TBXz2_o0KM]http://youtu.be/8TBXz2_o0KM[/video]

 

[spec4]

Can anyone tell me with certainty that the boyfriend was done with his attack, or if he was that the girlfriend would not say something to incense him to renew the attack? If in fact the attack was done, can one say with certainty that the shooter, on the ground and probably in pain, could clearly see the attack was over. What were the girlfriends plans when she exited the car while the shooter was on the ground?

And would those who say the shooter was hollering at the girlfriend please provide audio proof of same.

Finally, can anyone say with certainty EXACTLY what they would have done if they were the one on the ground?

 

[Alpo]

I am not a parking lot nazi. I wouldn't be on the ground.

Unless and until this goes to trial, your questions may remain unanswered.

You might have a career as a defense attorney...

 

[HoughMade]

I don't see a reason for shooting the guy. In other words...was it a reasonable use of deadly force? I don't see it. Nothing to do with "stand your ground".

As an aside- there's exactly 3 mopes in that video. One ended up dead. Not a good result.

 

[rhino]

Can anyone tell me with certainty that the boyfriend was done with his attack, or if he was that the girlfriend would not say something to incense him to renew the attack? If in fact the attack was done, can one say with certainty that the shooter, on the ground and probably in pain, could clearly see the attack was over. What were the girlfriends plans when she exited the car while the shooter was on the ground?

And would those who say the shooter was hollering at the girlfriend please provide audio proof of same.

Finally, can anyone say with certainty EXACTLY what they would have done if they were the one on the ground?

No, and that's a huge point. Dusty88 looked at the time stamps and noted that it was about a second and half elapsed between when we the audience see the guy backing away and when the shot is fired. Even if with perceived time compression under stress, that's not a lot of time.

I know what I would have done if I were the one on the ground. It would have taken me a lot longer (unless I fell in a very luck position) to get oriented mentally and physically to where I could take any kind of action, whether drawing my gun or curling into the fetal position or something in between. Given that scenario with me as the person who was pushed, I would expect the pusher to be on me wailing way with boot leather.

 

[rhino]

6. If this did go to trial and I'm on the jury the parking lot avenger is getting a guilty verdict....you can't shoot people once the threat is over. If you challenge them and they back away then they are no longer a lethal threat. By drawing the gun and threatening him you are asking for compliance (for him to stop) . Once you get that compliance you cannot then shoot them for not complying.....I'll be surprised if the state does not pursue this in court. Was he justified in drawing? I'd say yes...he was...was he justified in shooting after the boyfriend backs off ? No...he was not.

I'd want to hear what he has to say about it as well as any witness before I reached a conclusion, especially that conclusion. Viewing the video and perceiving a threat to be over is not the same as being the guy on the ground in that place and time and what he perceived.

Again, I think there is more gray area here than those who are able to tussle on the ground and pop right back up with no ill effects may be able to see because of their perspective. I guarantee my perception of that video would have been a lot different when I was in my mid 20s.

 

[JettaKnight]

Can anyone tell me with certainty that the boyfriend was done with his attack, or if he was that the girlfriend would not say something to incense him to renew the attack? If in fact the attack was done, can one say with certainty that the shooter, on the ground and probably in pain, could clearly see the attack was over. What were the girlfriends plans when she exited the car while the shooter was on the ground?

All reasons why the sheriff says it's a legal application of Florida's law regarding firearm usage. Barely.

Ultimately, we're not convicting anyone here, we are trying to study the tape and learn from it.

And would those who say the shooter was hollering at the girlfriend please provide audio proof of same.

You're probably right, it was all a pantomime.

Finally, can anyone say with certainty EXACTLY what they would have done if they were the one on the ground?

Really no one can say how exactly we'd react in that situation. Nevertheless, there's plenty of other things to take away.

 

[HoughMade]

The aggression starts with a guy yelling at a woman and child...