Face to Face transfer questions.

[evansvillethompsongunner]

Honestly, hopefully you have the capability to distinguish a legitimate buyer from an illegitimate straw purchase or disqualified person from experience, but so long as you act in good faith and take appropriate pre-emptions of duty, there's NOTHING anyone, not even the (in)famous F-Troop, can do to you. Regulations are worded to designed to put the fear of God into you, but so long as you make some reasonably thorough attempt to verify that the buyer is legitimate (LTCH, prior bill of sale from dealer, DL to confirm age, or some other reasonable tactic), and s/he seems legitimate, the only thing anyone could do in the already-unlikely event that the purchaser is not legitimate would be to sit on their thumbs and spin... in that situation, you have faithfully and to the letter of the law fulfilled your duty as seller to comply with the law - and if the purchaser is acting in bad faith or willfully misrepresenting themselves, it's on them. This of course is not an ideal situation to be put in regardless, but short of having the State database at your fingertips, you're not going to know - or be able to know - if someone is disqualified from purchasing arms.

For instance, someone could even have a copy of their LTCH, later been convicted of a felony (and as we all know, thus disqualified themselves), and then presented that as evidence of legitimacy in an attempted purchase from you - and for all you are capable of determining, it would appear to be legitimate: there's no way to know that said person is lying through their teeth to you in retaining a copy of a document which they were supposed to surrender to ISP upon disqualification. While everyone who does transactions FTF should make the effort, we're not omniscient beings, and some people are skilled con-artists. Do your best, but I refuse to tell you to lose sleep over it.

Then again, I am not a lawyer, haven't traded or sold anything I own to anyone, and don't plan to, unless someone has something I really, really want/need...

Anyhow, just two cents from an upstart whippersnapper...

 

[sj kahr k40]

Michiana I trying to say have a FFL do the transfer with the new owner filling out the 4473 form, that way you know the new owner is ok to own a firearm.

 

[Prometheus]

Honestly, hopefully you have the capability to distinguish a legitimate buyer from an illegitimate straw purchase or disqualified person from experience, but so long as you act in good faith and take appropriate pre-emptions of duty, there's NOTHING anyone, not even the (in)famous F-Troop, can do to you. Regulations are worded to designed to put the fear of God into you, but so long as you make some reasonably thorough attempt to verify that the buyer is legitimate (LTCH, prior bill of sale from dealer, DL to confirm age, or some other reasonable tactic), and s/he seems legitimate, the only thing anyone could do in the already-unlikely event that the purchaser is not legitimate would be to sit on their thumbs and spin...

The is absolutely INCORRECT. There is NOTHING requiring a private individual (in the state of Indiana and most states) that says you have to see a DL, LTCH or anything else.

Sheeet people never read the middle posts in thread.

 

[Jay]

Well, my little black-clad ninja wannabe, with the uber-tactical EBR.....The Indiana code does say this....

IC 35-47-2-7
Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10, a person may not sell, give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon (as defined in IC 35-50-2-11) to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.
(b) It is unlawful for a person to sell, give, or in any manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun to another person who the person has reasonable cause to believe:
(1) has been:
(A) convicted of a felony; or
(B) adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult, if the person seeking to obtain ownership or possession of the handgun is less than twenty-three (23) years of age;
(2) is a drug abuser;
(3) is an alcohol abuser; or
(4) is mentally incompetent.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.33-1989, SEC.126; P.L.140-1994, SEC.8; P.L.269-1995, SEC.7.

Now, how will a potential seller determine the age of a potential buyer?

After using his/her crystal ball, how will a seller stay on the right side of part B? I got it, the other crystal ball, right ?

Sheeet people never read the middle posts in thread.

Try reading the law.....

I'd much rather tell a judge:

"by the bill of sale I did the best I could to affirm that the buyer was of legal age, and not criminally prohibited from purchasing my handgun.... he lied to me".......

Rather than have to tell a judge:

Gee, judge, he didn't look like a 17 yr-old felon:.......

Play it however you want to folks............

 

[evansvillethompsongunner]

The is absolutely INCORRECT. There is NOTHING requiring a private individual (in the state of Indiana and most states) that says you have to see a DL, LTCH or anything else.

Sheeet people never read the middle posts in thread.

I was thinking of both criminal and civil penalties... and general responsibility. I stand vindicated on both aspects of doing so.

For instance, if one accidentally sells to a disqualified person and he kills someone, family can then sue for contributing to the demise of their loved one.

But upon further research, you're absolutely right, there is no Indiana law requiring private citizens to verify anything, save what's in statute -

"IC 35-47-2.5
Chapter 2.5. Sale of Handguns
IC 35-47-2.5-1
Applicability; conflicts
Sec. 1. (a) This chapter does not apply to the following:
(1) Transactions between persons who are licensed as firearms importers or collectors or firearms manufacturers or dealers under 18 U.S.C. 923.
(2) Purchases by or sales to a law enforcement officer or agent of the United States, the state, or a county or local government.
(3) Indiana residents licensed to carry handguns under IC 35-47-2-3.
(b) Notwithstanding any other provision of this chapter, the state shall participate in the NICS if federal funds are available to assist the state in participating in the NICS. If:
(1) the state participates in the NICS; and
(2) there is a conflict between:
(A) a provision of this chapter; and
(B) a procedure required under the NICS;
the procedure required under the NICS prevails over the conflicting provision of this chapter.


and even if this weren't the case, I still think it's definitely a good idea, as if you act in bad faith or as a straw purchaser, it could be a Class C or Class D felony:

IC 35-47-2.5-14
Providing handgun to ineligible purchaser; exemptions
Sec. 14. (a) This section does not apply to a person who provides a handgun to the following:
(1) A child who is attending a hunters safety course or a firearms safety course or an adult who is supervising the child during the course.
(2) A child engaging in practice in using a firearm for target shooting at an established range or in an area where the discharge of a firearm is not prohibited or is supervised by:
(A) a qualified firearms instructor; or
(B) an adult who is supervising the child while the child is at the range.
(3) A child engaging in an organized competition involving the use of a firearm or participating in or practicing for a performance by an organized group under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that uses firearms as a part of a performance or an adult who is involved in the competition or performance.
(4) A child who is hunting or trapping under a valid license issued to the child under IC 14-22.
(5) A child who is traveling with an unloaded firearm to or from an activity described in this section.
(6) A child who:
(A) is on real property that is under the control of the child's parent, an adult family member of the child, or the child's legal guardian; and
(B) has permission from the child's parent or legal guardian to possess a firearm.
(b) A person who purchases a handgun with the intent to:
(1) resell or otherwise provide the handgun to another person who the person knows or has reason to believe is ineligible for any reason to purchase or otherwise receive from a dealer a handgun; or
(2) transport the handgun out of the state to be resold or otherwise provided to another person who the transferor knows is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive a firearm;
commits a Class D felony.
(c) If the violation of this section involves a transfer of more than one (1) handgun, the offense is a Class C felony.

I wouldn't rely on the vague wording of legislation to keep me out of jail... I'd want to make sure I had an affirmative defense in case someone in the legal system who got a bit overzealous wanted to nail me to the wall... wouldn't you?
However, if one in good faith sells to a disqualified person, the burden is on the purchaser and not the seller:

IC 35-47-2.5-15
Ineligible purchaser attempting to purchase handgun; violation
Sec. 15. (a) A person who is ineligible to purchase or otherwise receive or possess a handgun in Indiana who knowingly or intentionally solicits, employs, or assists any person in violating section 14 of this chapter commits a Class D felony.
(b) If the violation involves a transfer of more than one (1) handgun, the offense is a Class C felony.

So yes, I can read... and yes, I was mistaken: my mistake; apologies.

 

[Michiana]

Michiana I trying to say have a FFL do the transfer with the new owner filling out the 4473 form, that way you know the new owner is ok to own a firearm.

Thanks for the clearification. Twenty dollars is not a lot of money for piece of mind; less than one box of ammo, half a box today.

 

[Michiana]

Better safe than sorry.

I don’t know why people have to beat up another person because that person feels it is in their best interest to ask for ID from a buyer? This is an individual decision much as OC vs. CC or keeping one in the chamber or not. There is no right or wrong on these particular subjects; how a person feels is what’s important. Being as careful as possible is better than being lackadaisical about the whole thing. I want to go to bed at night knowing I’ve done my best in keeping a dangerous weapon out of the hands of a minor or shady individual. Asking for an ID is not a cure all but it is one more thing responsible gun owners can do to protect our 2nd Amendment rights. Every time we read about crimes involving firearms it adds to the argument of more control on firearms; we need to self-police ourselves.

 

[Sthunter987]

JAY said best. How do you know who is "proper" and who is not. The BOS just gives you the owner piece of mind.

 

[Big John]

Plus a Bill of Sale provides me with all of your information, and I would assume you have other guns. If I was a "bad" person I would now have all your info so I could watch you and your home for a week to learn your schedule and patterns, maybe I would think your wife, daughter, or son are cute. By having that bill of sale you have just put your families life at risk.

I would rather see a DL and LTCH and make sure the names match, by law I am at that point removing risk from myself, first I know the person is of legal age and with the LTCH I can assume the person can legally own a gun. Of course this is not 100% but neither is a bill of sale and I really prefer not to have my personal info out there.

 

[Jay]

I would rather see a DL and LTCH and make sure the names match, by law I am at that point removing risk from myself, first I know the person is of legal age and with the LTCH I can assume the person can legally own a gun. Of course this is not 100% but neither is a bill of sale and I really prefer not to have my personal info out there.

I'll go along with that, and have done so before, but I wouldn't buy, or sell blindly.

 

[RA8]

Plus a Bill of Sale provides me with all of your information, and I would assume you have other guns. If I was a "bad" person I would now have all your info so I could watch you and your home for a week to learn your schedule and patterns, maybe I would think your wife, daughter, or son are cute. By having that bill of sale you have just put your families life at risk.

I would rather see a DL and LTCH and make sure the names match, by law I am at that point removing risk from myself, first I know the person is of legal age and with the LTCH I can assume the person can legally own a gun. Of course this is not 100% but neither is a bill of sale and I really prefer not to have my personal info out there.

Who ever said that a bill of sale required an address, work schedule, and a nude scratch and sniff picture of his grandmother?

A name, serial number, and ID check(cover your address, i dont care). done and done. If you see the document that i posted on the original post, there's spots to initial where the buyer declares that he is proper.. blah blah blah, just read it.

 

[Prometheus]

Well, my little black-clad ninja wannabe, with the uber-tactical EBR.....The Indiana code does say this....

IC 35-47-2-7
Prohibited sales or transfers of ownership
Sec. 7. (a) Except an individual acting within a parent-minor child or guardian-minor protected person relationship or any other individual who is also acting in compliance with IC 35-47-10, a person may not sell, give, or in any other manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun or assault weapon (as defined in IC 35-50-2-11) to any person under eighteen (18) years of age.
(b) It is unlawful for a person to sell, give, or in any manner transfer the ownership or possession of a handgun to another person who the person has reasonable cause to believe:
(1) has been:
(A) convicted of a felony; or
(B) adjudicated a delinquent child for an act that would be a felony if committed by an adult, if the person seeking to obtain ownership or possession of the handgun is less than twenty-three (23) years of age;
(2) is a drug abuser;
(3) is an alcohol abuser; or
(4) is mentally incompetent.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32. Amended by P.L.33-1989, SEC.126; P.L.140-1994, SEC.8; P.L.269-1995, SEC.7.

Now, how will a potential seller determine the age of a potential buyer?

After using his/her crystal ball, how will a seller stay on the right side of part B? I got it, the other crystal ball, right ?

Try reading the law.....

Thanks for quoting the appropriate IC code proving my points!

"Reasonable cause to believe" The burden of proof is on the state to show you KNEW the buyer was XYZ. Not the other way around.

Obviously if you see a very young person wearing a Crown Point Elementary school hoodie, you should be making sure they are 18, but then you would be following the law because you would have "reasonable cause to believe". All I've ever advocated in this thread was following the law, nothing more.

Many people in this thread have given "peace of mind" as their reasoning. Whatever helps you sleep at night... even if that peace of mind is a complete falsehood.

 

[Prometheus]

A name, serial number, and ID check(cover your address, i dont care). done and done. If you see the document that i posted on the original post, there's spots to initial where the buyer declares that he is proper.. blah blah blah, just read it.

Nothing wrong with that, just as I posted a few pages ago

 

[sj kahr k40]

Gomez I understand what you are saying but like Michiana pointed out $20 is not that bad for peice of mind. Say you sell this gun FTF and it is used in a crime, the police find the weapon and trace it back to you, do you really think any detective will just ask one sentence and take you at your word that you didn't falsify your bill of sale. Cops by nature are suspicious and having a form 4473 with your info as well as the firearms serial# on it may get a judge to ok a search warrant. I kow you say that can't happen but I know it can, judges by nature beleive cops and not persons of interest. My go to your local FFL and have them transfer the firearm.

 

[Jay]

Prometheus my thumb will be over the addy/name.

hmmmmm

Originally Posted by gomez.ra8
A name, serial number, and ID check(cover your address, i dont care). done and done. If you see the document that i posted on the original post, there's spots to initial where the buyer declares that he is proper.. blah blah blah, just read it.

Nothing wrong with that, just as I posted a few pages ago

Not quite....

 

[Big John]

Who ever said that a bill of sale required an address, work schedule, and a nude scratch and sniff picture of his grandmother?

A name, serial number, and ID check(cover your address, i dont care). done and done. If you see the document that i posted on the original post, there's spots to initial where the buyer declares that he is proper.. blah blah blah, just read it.

You seem to have missed the point, we basically agree DL and LTCH and your golden.

My point was if there was any other information exchanged it opens up a whole world of bad possibilities. It would not take much for a person who wanted to, to use that information for no good. I just prefer to keep my private life that, PRIVATE.

Again as Michiana and several others have said if it makes you sleep easier go and transfer it through a FFL. I am not coming down on you we basically agree with the exception of you need a piece of paper.

 

[Michiana]

Selling a gun is the least of your worries with your personal information.

You seem to have missed the point, we basically agree DL and LTCH and your golden.

My point was if there was any other information exchanged it opens up a whole world of bad possibilities. It would not take much for a person who wanted to, to use that information for no good. I just prefer to keep my private life that, PRIVATE.

Again as Michiana and several others have said if it makes you sleep easier go and transfer it through a FFL. I am not coming down on you we basically agree with the exception of you need a piece of paper.

John; you are dealing with buying or selling a dangerous weapon and are not willing to share “personal” information but think of the following you do several times a week. You go into stores and hand complete strangers your credit card with your name and card number on it. Some stores ask you for your phone number or zip code. There are programs on line like Switchboard.com that allow you to look up addresses from phone numbers. Lets not even get into internet purchases.
These people can go on line and find where you live in a matter of minutes. They can Google you and even get a picture of your house. They can go on INGo and get your birthdate. Let’s see, name, address, phone number, date of birth and credit card number; I feel a shopping trip in the future.

 

[Big John]

Your right Michiana but I am not worried about Identity theft, I am not worried about my credit card being used.

What I don't want is another person who either I sold a gun too or purchased one from to have my home address. I do NOT worry about an FFL having it no big deal (until the Russians use it (RedDawn)).

People I have more then an internet relationship with I do not mind but if I meet for a FTF transaction I don't REALLY know you. With the current state of the Nation I wouls be more worried about a "good" person who turns stupid when him and his family fall on hard times thinking "Hey that guy I bought that (pistol,rifle) from I'll bet he has more.

It would not be hard to sit off a side road and wait to see my truck go by as I am headed for work, hmmmmm wonder what he has.

Locks keep honest people honest.

If I had any doubt about the person I would refuse to do the transaction. I have done several FTF and I always BS before we ever get down to business, I like to think I am a good judge of character.

 

[JUMBO]

Whew!!! I just read through all this banter, Much passion on this subject!

 

[Michiana]

Your right Michiana but I am not worried about Identity theft, I am not worried about my credit card being used.

What I don't want is another person who either I sold a gun too or purchased one from to have my home address. I do NOT worry about an FFL having it no big deal (until the Russians use it (RedDawn)).

People I have more then an internet relationship with I do not mind but if I meet for a FTF transaction I don't REALLY know you. With the current state of the Nation I wouls be more worried about a "good" person who turns stupid when him and his family fall on hard times thinking "Hey that guy I bought that (pistol,rifle) from I'll bet he has more.

It would not be hard to sit off a side road and wait to see my truck go by as I am headed for work, hmmmmm wonder what he has.

Locks keep honest people honest.

If I had any doubt about the person I would refuse to do the transaction. I have done several FTF and I always BS before we ever get down to business, I like to think I am a good judge of character.

I have done several hundred transfers and sold dozens of guns, both private and thru my business. I have sent products to people who have bought from me so their check and the product passed in the mail. I have taken personal checks from a lot of people and knock on wood I have never been stuck yet. Last year I had some products I did not order show up at my house and got thank you's for donations I did not make. I found out that someone had opened a Yahoo email account and was charging things to one of my credit cards. I had to cancel the card and try to remember all the companies that had this card number for automatic payments and get them my new card number. That was a big pain in the butt.

I must say that everyone I have dealt with so far in my gun business are first rate people and many have become friends over time. They come into my house and are treated like company and in turn are very respectful of me and my wife. Maybe I have been lucky but I like to think most people are honest and appreciate being treated with respect. Many of my customers are repeats, some over a dozen transactions in a year so I must be doing somethin right. My score card rated my gun friend +1 and using my credit card on the internet a big -3.