Face to Face transfer questions.

[RA8]

Im in the process of selling a handgun in Indiana. FTF preferred. My dad, who lives in california, is worried about me covering my *** in the sale, legally.

I typed up this bill of sale, and emailed it to him to calm his nerves.

Anyone who is familiar with FTF transfers and the law, please tell me whether this bill of sale is both appropriate, and complete in covering all bases.

Also, please feel free to PRINT out your own copies if you like it, you can make improvements, and use it yourself.

-rob

http://www.filedropper.com/billofsale

 

[NateIU10]

some use them, some, including me don't. I do what is required by law, and no more. It's really up to you as the seller, you can tell the person they have to wear a pink shirt when they meet and refuse to sell if they're not. If that's what you want to do, feel free, but there are some out there who won't sign one.

 

[RA8]

but there are some out there who won't sign one.

And some(like myself) who wont sell one unless its signed

 

[melensdad]

And some(like myself) who wont sell one unless its signed

State that upfront to the buyer. Some buyers refuse to sign them. I've never asked for one when I've sold a gun to someone I know, or to someone that has been a member here for a good deal of time and has plenty of positive reputation points. If I feel you are a good guy then I don't have a problem selling you a gun. If I get any thought that you are not then I won't sell you a gun even if you offer to sign a bill of sale. Now all that said, I rarely sell, and typically buy. I've signed a few but probably 90% have had no paperwork involved when I buy, which is in full accord with the law of not only this state but the majority of states in the US.

 

[joshennis84]

As long as you have the time and date and serial number on it, I think you are fine.

 

[melensdad]

As long as you have the time and date and serial number on it, I think you are fine.

Why do you think that? None of those are required.

I know he doesn't need it because the law says so. It also states you can't sell a gun to someone who you have reason to believe can't have one. So when selling a gun the best bet is to talk to the person and get to know them, if your hair on the back of your neck rises up, or you get a bad feeling then don't proceed with the sale. Paperwork will NOT save you if you make an illegal sale.

 

[Prometheus]

State that upfront to the buyer. Some buyers refuse to sign them.

+1

I have never required one. No way I'm giving my personal information to some guy I met on the internet or random guy at a gun show.

There is no legal requirement to have a bill of sale nor does it provide a single shred of protection to either the buyer OR seller in a criminal case.

It's a lose-lose situation for both parties.

If someone wants to glance at my DL or LTCH, I'm fine with that, my thumb will be over the addy/name. Beyond that, I'd tell them to pound sand.

Like Melensdad, I rarely sell, I'm usually the buyer.

 

[RA8]

Well, My only issue is that when i bought it, the govt. took my info along with the serial. i just want proof that its no longer in my possession.

 

[NateIU10]

Well, My only issue is that when i bought it, the govt. took my info along with the serial. i just want proof that its no longer in my possession.

"Nope, sold it, thanks for asking"

 

[Jay]

If someone wants to glance at my DL or LTCH, I'm fine with that, my thumb will be over the addy/name. Beyond that, I'd tell them to pound sand.

You have no need to worry about buying from me then. The possession of a LTCH pretty much says the buyer is a "proper person". Prove to me you're a "proper person", and I'll sell a handgun to you. Hide your identity, and YOU can pound sand. Yes, mistakes have been made, and an LTCH can be forged. But tell me, what does a felon look like?

Each has to decide on his/her own. Or not..... whatever........

 

[CSK22]

Well, My only issue is that when i bought it, the govt. took my info along with the serial. i just want proof that its no longer in my possession.

Correct me if I'm wrong but wherever you purchased the gun from has that information, not the government.

The way I understand it the gov only knows that you information was searched through and that you may or may not have purchased a gun. The store has the info, the government can search the serial number and trace it to the store, and the store can tell the government who purchased it. But according to IN law, you can say you sold it and get off the hook.

Can an ffl verify this or tell me i'm misinformed i read this on INGO somewhere.

 

[Big John]

Yep, you have a better chance of getting me to swap spit with you then to give you any personal information. I will gladly show my DL and LTCH and you can see that they match but I will not be giving you addy and such, not that I don't trust you but what if somebody else gets a hold of that info in a break in or something.

 

[tv1217]

While it's not legally required, it's probably a good idea just to cover your donkey, for buyer and seller. Can't always trust everybody. They could have/will use it in a crime, or report it stolen after they sell it. There are a million stupid scenarios you could come up with that someone has probably done/tried. Hell, put it in an envelope and mail it to yourself, now it's postmarked.

 

[Michiana]

FFL transfer information

Correct me if I'm wrong but wherever you purchased the gun from has that information, not the government.

The way I understand it the gov only knows that you information was searched through and that you may or may not have purchased a gun. The store has the info, the government can search the serial number and trace it to the store, and the store can tell the government who purchased it. But according to IN law, you can say you sold it and get off the hook.

Can an ffl verify this or tell me i'm misinformed i read this on INGO somewhere.

The FFL is required to keep the form 4473 file in their records for 20 years. If they close up business the forms and their bound book has to be returned to the ATF records office. The bound book has the make, model, type of firearm, cal, serial number, name and address of the buyer and seller or their FFL number if they are licensed, date the firearm came in and went out. When the NICS check is complete I was told by the FBI that after 24 hours they are required by law to purge that information from their data base which is why some people can have a dozen smooth transfers and get delayed on the next one; each background check is a fresh one.

I have no idea what becomes of the records that are turned in when a FFL goes out of business. Also keep in mind if you do a multiple handgun transfer within a five business day period the FFL is required to file a multiple sale form to the FBI and the Indiana State Police which has the make, model and serial number of the weapons along with the buyers information. This is required to be submitted by fax within the close of the business day or mailed within 24 hours.

None of this matters once a gun leaves with the owner and he turns around at a later time and sells the weapon F to F. I feel if you have no intention of doing anything wrong with the weapon why worry about who knows what.

 

[sj kahr k40]

If you are worried about the FFL having your name and address connected to that gun then find a FFL that will do a transfer for you. That way if anything happens with the gun it will be connected to someone elses name. This may cost a little but it would certainly cover your a** legally.

 

[one more]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wherever you purchased the gun from has that information, not the government.

The way I understand it the gov only knows that you information was searched through and that you may or may not have purchased a gun. The store has the info, the government can search the serial number and trace it to the store, and the store can tell the government who purchased it. But according to IN law, you can say you sold it and get off the hook.

Can an ffl verify this or tell me i'm misinformed i read this on INGO somewhere.

Thanks Michiana, I see you already answered this question.

Yep, you have a better chance of getting me to swap spit with you then to give you any personal information. I will gladly show my DL and LTCH and you can see that they match but I will not be giving you addy and such, not that I don't trust you but what if somebody else gets a hold of that info in a break in or something.

Big John, and no one has ever broke into a Gun Shop before?

gomez.ra8 do what makes you fill comfortable!

I know with a C & R if you sell something you used your C & R to buy you have to get the information from the new owner are he does not get to buy!!

 

[Michiana]

If you are worried about the FFL having your name and address connected to that gun then find a FFL that will do a transfer for you. That way if anything happens with the gun it will be connected to someone elses name. This may cost a little but it would certainly cover your a** legally.

I read this post several times and am not sure what you are trying to say; can you restate it?

 

[one more]

Yep, you have a better chance of getting me to swap spit with you then to give you any personal information. I will gladly show my DL and LTCH and you can see that they match but I will not be giving you addy and such, not that I don't trust you but what if somebody else gets a hold of that info in a break in or something.

Big John, I will say that is why I never put my SS number on a 4473 form. Not just someone breaking in but employees also?

 

[one more]

If you are worried about the FFL having your name and address connected to that gun then find a FFL that will do a transfer for you. That way if anything happens with the gun it will be connected to someone elses name. This may cost a little but it would certainly cover your a** legally.

I read this post several times and am not sure what you are trying to say; can you restate it?

Michiana, I think he is refering to the FFL Dealer that gomez.ra8 bought the gun from has all of his information on it. So he is telling gomez.ra8 to go through another FFL dealer to get the information in the new owners name.?
sj kahr k40, please if I am wrong help us both out!!

one more

 

[Prometheus]

Well, My only issue is that when i bought it, the govt. took my info along with the serial. i just want proof that its no longer in my possession.

Did you get it notarized? I understand what you are saying and trying to accomplish. Just realize that a bill of sale between you and Joe-SixPack means nothing in terms of a criminal investigation.

If you are actually looking to cover yourself, you need to transfer it thru a dealer.

A private bill of sale MEANS NOTHING in a criminal case. NOTHING. Sure a jury may go along with it (assuming the judge allows it, which s/he probably wouldn't), but do you really want to take it all the way to a jury trial?

Sorry kids, you can't have your transfer money and keep it too.

I once had a guy who wanted to copy down my DL info. I asked why and he said 'so I can say who has it if you do something stupid with it...' I asked for his DL and he asked why so I said "so I can tell the cops who I got the stolen gun". He said it was absurd to accuse him of having a stolen gun I retorted with the flip side, that it was absurd to assume I'd use it in a crime. After a brief discussion a handshake sealed the deal and it was cash and carry.

People are, for the most part, trying to do the right thing. That said, I'm not going to hand out my info just so some dolt can go home thinking they've C'ed their A when they haven't.

Plenty of guns for sale. I find one somewhere else. Speaking of which, I don't think I've even seen a gun sold on this board for a decent price on this board when it had a "bill of sale required" line in it. They've all been over priced IMO and most have sat for a very long time.