external safety hatred syndrome

[db1959]

I currently EDC a Beretta M9 and you certainly don't want to carry with one in chamber, decocked and unlocked. Condition 2 is never recommended.
If the hammer is knocked or bumped into, can possibly lead to ND. This has been claimed, but I have yet to test at the range, but logic does indicate it can occur.
I have yet to read a single report or article of a ND due to carrying in Condition 0.

This is from the Beretta site:

Automatic Firing Pin Block. The front part of the firing pin is blocked from any forward movement until the trigger is pulled completely back. Even if the pistols falls and strikes the ground, muzzle-down, the firing pin will not strike the primer.

Unless I am reading that wrong, I could carry with one in the chamber, decocked and unlocked, correct?

For me the reason I dislike Safeties on a Pistol is due to the fact it is just another point to Fail on a very complicated Machine...



Ohhhh...

You mean the Decocker that acts like a Manual Safety that everybody calls the Safety...


I have Personally carried one for Hundreds of Hours if not Thousands of Hours in Condition 2 without ever having this happen.

It is a dual function "switch". With the safety on it disengages the firing pin. Pull that thing all you want and it aint gonna go bang.

 

[kingnereli]

personaly i dont like a saftey you cant visouly see i have always thought internal saftey was a bad idea ,when you look at the human factor of (if its man made it can break).I like the option of seeing if my safety is in good working condition and a 1911 grip safety is pretty straight forward.

Internal "safeties" really aren't safeties at all. They're devices that prevent the gun from firing due to some type of mechanical failure. Most notably, they're the reason pistols are considered drop safe. A glock, for example, you can drop it, hit it with a hammer, anything and the various passive internal mechanisms prevent it from firing. Internal safeties don't, however, prevent the trigger from being snagged and are no help for those of us who realize that our brains are not so perfect that we couldn't possibly make a mistake.

For me, all my pistols will have a real safety and as many internal mechanisms, commonly referred to as passive safeties, will be removed as possible. They have a horrendous affect on the trigger pull and are more than a little bit useless.

 

[ATF Consumer]

This is from the Beretta site:


Unless I am reading that wrong, I could carry with one in the chamber, decocked and unlocked, correct?

That is how I interpret it.
When the trigger is pulled fully back, the firing pin block is pushed up, out of the way and allows the hammer to strike the firing pin forward.
The firing pin block indicator is in front of the rear sight and only raises upward about 1mm when it is disengaged.

Looks like I will need an actual 1911 to test condition 2 failure at the range...I'd be banging on my M9 all day long

 

[thompal]

Milkshakeed I have to disagree just a little with your statement about speed having to cock a 1911. Cocking the gun changes your grip dramatically, while clicking off the safety does not. But again, it's about comfort level.

I have no proof, but I suspect that a loaded and UNcocked 1911 is less safe than a locked and loaded one, simply because with one in the chamber and the hammer down, all it would take is a strike on the hammer to discharge the firearm. I agree about the time is would take to cock a 1911 versus merely flipping the safety. Cocking either requires using two hands, or a drastic grip change, both of which are time-consuming and more prone to flubs.

 

[kingnereli]

It's been some time since I've been through his documentation...but the better proof would be someone show me where it IS designed to be carried in condition 1.
You will be able to find military training manuals, as well a others...but you won't find it from the actual designer.

People here are claiming it was designed that way...I say PROVE IT!

Have you seen the sear engagement on a 1911? I would post a picture if I thought it would do any good. The hammer is held to the sear by a hairs breadth. It takes very little trigger movement to release the hammer. Original intent or not, just like every other single action or striker fired design, it is foolish to not have the safety engaged.

Since some here claim they are just as fast releasing the safety as other not using the safety...and that the safety is released even before it is removed from the holster, I question then...what is the safety doing for you when the trigger is completely covered and cannot discharge the weapon? How is that any more safe than not using the safety while holstered?

First I'll say that I don't release the safety till the gun is leveling off. However, the safety also works when were handling, cleaning, holstering, unholstering(without the intent to fire), etc. This isn't simply a draw and fire issue. As I said previously, it's about layers of safety. We keep our imperfect brains as vigilant as possible towards the four rules and we keep or safeties engaged.

 

[IndyGunner]

My opinion: Do whatever you want. This is kind of like the OC vs CC thread. Positives and negatives on each side. I carry glocks. I feel like my crossbreed and fobus trigger guards are safety enough. I just leave it in the holster unless im shooting, in a defensive situation where verbal commands work, or cleaning it. The best safety is between your ears, but you must prepare to only have a second to act.

Like I said, do what you want. I use a safety when I hunt, but im cocked and ready to rock as far as personal protection goes. Jus sayin!

 

[thompal]

But, I disagree with anyone that a gun with a manual safety is safer than one without. That's just BS.

Did you take all the safeties off your AR-15s then?

 

[ATF Consumer]

Have you seen the sear engagement on a 1911? I would post a picture if I thought it would do any good. The hammer is held to the sear by a hairs breadth. It takes very little trigger movement to release the hammer. Original intent or not, just like every other single action or striker fired design, it is foolish to not have the safety engaged.

I don't discount what you have stated, but cannot find any verified data that there has ever been ND while carrying in condition 0.

First I'll say that I don't release the safety till the gun is leveling off. However, the safety also works when were handling, cleaning, holstering, unholstering(without the intent to fire), etc. This isn't simply a draw and fire issue. As I said previously, it's about layers of safety. We keep our imperfect brains as vigilant as possible towards the four rules and we keep or safeties engaged.

General safety practices will tell you to always use your safeties when not intending to shoot while handing your firearm. My safety is engaged when removing it for every other purpose but to shoot at my designated target.

 

[thompal]

The personal preference of the majority doesn't change the facts of my findings.
In my tests, Condition 1 IS slower than Condition 0.

Test it yourself with some friends.

You are very correct about preference...I prefer the faster reaction time.

Were your scientific tests done with 1911s, using people who had carried 1911s?

I will admit that if you hand a 1911 to someone not used to them (such as a revolver user, or Glockist) then I can very well see that their training with non-safety handguns wouldn't help them at all.

Likewise, if you hand a 1911 user an unfamiliar handgun, where the safety is someplace odd, or flips the other direction, then I can understand how THAT could cause slower times than with a non-safety handgun.

But for someone who uses a 1911, the safety flip is a natural part of the draw, and unless forced to use an unfamiliar holster, I doubt that a 1911 user drawing and firing a 1911 is ANY slower than a 1911 user drawing and firing a Glock, from an identical holster, carried where they normally carry.

ANY unfamiliar aspects will slow anyone down. Different holster. Different carry method. Different type of handgun.

A person who has used only Glocks will CERTAINLY be slower when trying out a 1911. Who would suspect otherwise? It's why we train WITH THE HANDGUN AND HOLSTER WE CARRY. You can't simply hand a 1911 to a person who never uses one, and expect them to be as fast as what they've spent hundreds or thousands of hours training with.

 

[IndyGunner]

^ why make such biased general statements? Explain to me the correlation between liking glocks and being a sub-par marksman? Keep in mind my next handgun will be a 1911.

 

[bobzilla]

As I had indicated earlier...recommendations from military and other trainers, but not designed to be carried in Condition 1, as so many misinformed posters have continually pressed as fact. I beg to differ and that is my biggest point of my posting in this thread...too many are posting without really knowing MY OPINIONS.

Fixed that for you.

Actually, I have other's experience to draw from as well, as I have witnessed this during training and tests at the range. [Means I don't know personally, I'm justwatching other people]

Fixed that one too...

The best results are when you have no clue when you are supposed to draw, then all of a sudden a moving target appears and you must react.

From my findings...memory motions are not always reliable. In a heated moment, they are sometimes forgotten.

And my "findings" are the opposite. I've carried my 1991A1 for almost 15 years. The act of drawing, flip the safety and aquiring the target have become second nature. Had a very recent occurance of a skunk popping out less than 4 feet from me a little over a week ago in the yard. This has become more common so as we're doing yard work I've been CC'ing in the yard. I let it get far enough away that I wouldn't get sprayed but the pistol was out, on target and safety off in one motion.... I can't even fathom NOT flipping the safety on it.

HEll, to be honest when I carry the .38 I find myself sweeping the safety as I clear the holster.... and it doesn't have one.

I don't discount what you have stated, but cannot find any verified data that there has ever been ND while carrying in condition 0.

Woah woah woah..... when did you start worrying about "verified data"? I mena, all yours is based on watching a few friends draw and guessing at which is longer/better?

this is such a personal issue, we might as well be asking what color hair on a woman we like better, or which toilet paper is best.

 

[calcot7]

1911 saftey

The only way a 1911 should be carried with a round in the chamber is cocked and locked with the saftey on. Any other way is extremley dangerous or totally useless.

 

[thompal]

yep..If you develope that muscle memory then you'll have no problems. for some its easier to develope,I reckon. I started carrying with no safety so thats what I learned{simply draw,point and fire}...having to re-learn something is my brick wall. but I will say that while practicing with my 1911 I can see where once you developed that muscle memory you'll be just as quick as you would be with no safety..its really nothing to draw and position your thumb so that as soon as your pistol is cear your thumb has already disengaged the safety. ive seen it with my dad..he is just as fast at drawing and putting rounds in the target with his 1911 as I am at drawing and putting rounds in the target with a glock...probably not the best example as he has forgotten more than I know about defensive pistol shooting. but you get the idea.

It's a PERFECT example. Someone who is used to a 1911 and has trained with one is just as fast as someone who has trained with a Glock and has trained with one.

That is EXACTLY the point that the safety-haters miss. They may not PERSONALLY be as fast with a safety because they obviously aren't used to them and haven't put in hundreds or thousands of hours training with them. That is completely irrelevant when comparing them to 1911 users who HAVE trained and for whom a safety is a natural part of the draw.

 

[thompal]

Yep...I'd like to test this at the range...tap the back of the hammer while pointing down range. How much force is required to get it to fire?
I'm sure various models will result differently.

And probably different brands of ammo!

 

[U.S. Patriot]

It's a PERFECT example. Someone who is used to a 1911 and has trained with one is just as fast as someone who has trained with a Glock and has trained with one.

That is EXACTLY the point that the safety-haters miss. They may not PERSONALLY be as fast with a safety because they obviously aren't used to them and haven't put in hundreds or thousands of hours training with them. That is completely irrelevant when comparing them to 1911 users who HAVE trained and for whom a safety is a natural part of the draw.

Muscle memory is important. However, I have seen people who have drilled on the same skill over and over. Yet, when the adrenaline dumped, they forgot how to do basic functions. Me, I do not want to take that chance. Training is important, but still does not replace real world situations.

 

[kingnereli]

I don't discount what you have stated, but cannot find any verified data that there has ever been ND while carrying in condition 0.

If you are referring specifically to 1911's carried in condition 0 that doesn't surprise me. The percentage of people who carry one in that condition is unquestionably low. The best place to look is at other pistol designs with a relatively light trigger pull, no safety present and a reputation for being conducive to ND's.

General safety practices will tell you to always use your safeties when not intending to shoot while handing your firearm. My safety is engaged when removing it for every other purpose but to shoot at my designated target.

General safety practices will tell you to always use your safeties period. You won't find the idea of carrying a 1911 in condition 0 so widely accepted as to be considered "general safety practices."

 

[indytoe]

1) External "Safety(s)" -- BY THEIR NAME -- encourage less-than-100% vigilance in everyday pistol safety. ("What's to worry?!? It's on *safe*!! {BANG.}) It's a GUN, and it could wound YOU in the same way that knife over there {points} would, if you were stupid enough to pick it up and toss it repeatedly into the air. DON'T DO IT.

2) External Safeties on long guns are quite different.
a) I don't stuff long guns ("safed" or not) INTO MY PANTS.
b) Long guns may be waved all over UNPROTECTED from trigger perturbations -- we're just hoping not too much falls into the barrel, let alone gets near the trigger.
c) The presentation of long guns in a defensive situation occures without the surprise of close-quarter conflict like that seen with handguns; even long guns brought to bear in a hunting or target application have specific ritual involved with travel, positioning, and fire-ready preparations.

3) Analogies have been made about driving a car with no brakes, flying a jet with no window, -- but a safety on a handgun is like none of these, for these *mostly* work, and their failure or disengagement is obvious. A handgun safety, AT THE TIME OF MOST IMPORTANT USE, is not so visible (whether the user is an ignorant child, or an adrenalin-rushed adult). Only the end result in the case of an unintended discharge, will be obvious. Ewww.

FWIW, If I *had* a 1911-patterned weapon, I would definitely carry cocked/locked, and train to pop off that thumb safety-- and were children around, I would (and have) removed my barrel round (from my GLOCKs and Kel-Tecs), but as I carry different weapons in different carry modes in different situaltions, and don't wish to have to chant my current configuration to myself to keep things automatic as I walk down the street, I'll keep things simple (GLOCK and/or Kel-Tec) and *always* know, unless my pinkie is in the breach, that my gun will go BANG if I pull the trigger. Much more than that is too much burden, and will get *somebody* shot.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Were your scientific tests done with 1911s, using people who had carried 1911s?

To the best of my knowledge, those that participated used their own 1911s.

Originally Posted by ATF Consumer
As I had indicated earlier...recommendations from military and other trainers, but not designed to be carried in Condition 1, as so many misinformed posters have continually pressed as fact. I beg to differ and that is my biggest point of my posting in this thread...too many are posting without really knowing MY OPINIONS.
Fixed that for you.

How is a fact that John M. Browning did not design the 1911 to be carried in condition 1 "my opinion"?
People continually post that misinformed notion as fact, yet there is nothing to back it up. If you think that is my opinion, then PLEASE PROVE ME WRONG!

Woah woah woah..... when did you start worrying about "verified data"? I mena, all yours is based on watching a few friends draw and guessing at which is longer/better?

Multiple participants experienced the same thing, yet our findings are baseless? They were not "verified" by some sort of sanctioned group, but were verified...."Verify: To determine or test the truth or accuracy of, as by comparison." That was done, thank you.

this is such a personal issue, we might as well be asking what color hair on a woman we like better, or which toilet paper is best.

You are correct about that, carry as you like...

 

[INyooper]

this is such a personal issue, we might as well be asking what color hair on a woman we like better, or which toilet paper is best.

Very insightful, indeed. FWIW, my preference is Charmin ...in "condition two," of course!

Also, there is something to be said (or, at least wondered) about those who protest the loudest. ....yeah, that could be a toilet-paper pun, too.

 

[88E30M50]

Since some here claim they are just as fast releasing the safety as other not using the safety...and that the safety is released even before it is removed from the holster, I question then...what is the safety doing for you when the trigger is completely covered and cannot discharge the weapon? How is that any more safe than not using the safety while holstered?

One big thing is that the safety keeps me from an AD when reholstering. I think the reason Glocks tend to have more ADs is that they require more care to reholster. Once a person's motor skills go to hell after drawing in a real situation, they go to reholster and forget to move their finger out of the trigger guard. Either that, or there is something in the way that catches the trigger. Whatever the case, if they cannot reholster without checking to see if the holster is clear, then the chance of an AD rises.

The issue is not about the safety on the draw, as having a manual safety makes no difference either way in terms of time on a well designed pistol. There is a zero speed loss on draw with a 1911 or large frame Bersa due to manipulation of the safety. On a PPK, the slide mounted safety could impact the draw, but most carry those with the safety off. On a 1911, the safety is a non-issue on the draw. The safety is benificial at all other times.

I won't carry a gun without a manual safety.