Even Sean Hannity Gets It: It's Time for Immigration Reform

[jeremy]

Not quite what I have in mind for Immigration Reform, if I were POTUS...

 

[Phil502]

Sorry to break it to everyone..... Reagan already tried this in 1986.... guess how well that worked out for Republicans.


Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yep it failed. If I remember correctly the borders were supposed to be shut down and they never were, the democrats blocked the funding. Europeans were restricted by country to a certain number but Mexico just keeps piling in. Ted Kennedy gets some credit in writing and pushing all that bs back then.

 

[downzero]

New workers? there aren't enough jobs for workers that are already here. Double digit real unemployment, hello?

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how capitalism works. Google "fixed pie fallacy." Capitalism isn't a zero sum game. Convincing people that capitalism is a zero sum game is usually what the Dems do. Nicely played.

For the rest of you, this isn't about pandering to Hispanics. This is about growing our economy and labor force and stabilizing our fiscal disaster.

 

[Rob377]

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how capitalism works. Google "fixed pie fallacy." Capitalism isn't a zero sum game. Convincing people that capitalism is a zero sum game is usually what the Dems do. Nicely played.

For the rest of you, this isn't about pandering to Hispanics. This is about growing our economy and labor force and stabilizing our fiscal disaster.

Zero sum? Who said anything about that? What a poorly constructed strawman.

You don't grow the economy by having workers stand idly by with nothing to do Google "common freaking sense"

Let's just bus in half the population of Latin America, the economy will start going gangusters then! The demand for their unskilled labor will just materialize out of nowhere, it'll be great!


It's about pandering, and **** poor pandering at that. Hispanics don't vote Democrat because Dems dangle the amnesty carrot year after year, they vote Democrat because they ARE (in the aggregate) Democrats.

Just like the '86 amnesty, it will not win the hearts and minds of big gov't loving illegals and convert them into small gov't Republicans.

 

[mrortega]

Hannity is an idiot.

We already have PLENTY of workers.

Remove the illegals, and wages will rise to market values.


As to gaining the Hispanic vote, it won't work.

The draw to the Democratic Party for the Hispanic vote is the SAME draw as other demographic groups.
The Democrats support more "free stuff" than the Republicans.

We do have plenty of workers but many of them won't take available jobs if they are unemployed. I know a guy whose wife has a good job with all the family insurance, whose house and vehicles are paid for. He was unemployed for over a year and had no desire to take something "beneath" him. He did small engine repair for cash and actually made good money doing it. Why do something "demeaning" if you can collect unemployment for a year and work in a cash business while your wife brings home all the benies? This is what frosts my a$$. The govt keeps extending unemployment benefits for longer periods so nobody feels all the pain.

 

[El T]

These are poor, uneducated people, and they are focused on free benefits to survive, not a house and a yard, not school, or anything we consider a priority.

WTF???
And how do you have your finger on the pulse of these folks?

These people demonstrate the very essence that this country once was as they were scratching and clawing to try and make a life for their families.

They take the jobs that Americans don't want and not just one job but multiple jobs.

If anything, all of the nipple-sucking trash in this country needs to take a page from their book.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Eisenhower dealt with this problem by deporting illegals freeing up jobs for those who are here legally one way or another. This was done in tandem with the absence of .gov programs to incentivize the refusal to work. It worked then and would work now if anyone had the fortitude to do it, or was willing to forgo political mileage for damaging the country.

I will add that it is impossible to work according to the law and compete with those who do not follow the law, and employers who do not follow the law cannot very well run a mixed legal/illegal shop, now can they? The United States does not belong to the world. It belongs to its citizens.

 

[Fuzzsniffvoyager]

I Mexicans don't like their country/politicians, corrupt police, drug cartels, they should stand up for them selves and take their country back. Not run away.

 

[netsecurity]

WTF???
And how do you have your finger on the pulse of these folks?

These people demonstrate the very essence that this country once was as they were scratching and clawing to try and make a life for their families.

They take the jobs that Americans don't want and not just one job but multiple jobs.

If anything, all of the nipple-sucking trash in this country needs to take a page from their book.

I didn't say there were trash, I said they were poor and usually uneducated. Take offense if you want, but I doubt we're getting many engineers from Mexico. It is true that many are great workers, and we could learn a thing or two from them about work ethic.

They are usually manual laborers. Manual laborers vote Democrat. Perhaps they are indoctrinated by their American counterparts on the job, or perhaps manual laborers simply understand the obvious, which is that one day they won't be able to do manual labor anymore, and since they don't have other skills they need a fiscal safety net. Either way, they usually swing Democrat, and of course their children do the same.

It doesn't matter if they are the best workers in the world though. If they are coming here illegally then they are breaking the law, and we can't be responsible for their health--which we are currently...and it is a huge problem with our healthcare system.

 

[CarmelHP]

I would welcome open borders if we had a level playing field. No $2000 refundable tax credits for each child whose name you can come up with back in Mexico, if the immigrant avoids tax, then the citizen avoids tax, no free food, no free rent, no free medical care, no taxpayer assistance of any kind. No translations to make it easier to stay stuck in your native tongue. If they still come under those rules, I'll be the first to welcome them.

 

[downzero]

I would welcome open borders if we had a level playing field. No $2000 refundable tax credits for each child whose name you can come up with back in Mexico, if the immigrant avoids tax, then the citizen avoids tax, no free food, no free rent, no free medical care, no taxpayer assistance of any kind.

Not sure what this is getting at. The EITC only applies to citizens, those with green cards, or non-resident aliens who are married to citizens. Or am I getting this one wrong? It's been a while since I've helped someone file such a return.

Or are you talking about some other refundable tax credit that I'm not considering?

 

[Rob377]

Not sure what this is getting at. The EITC only applies to citizens, those with green cards, or non-resident aliens who are married to citizens. Or am I getting this one wrong? It's been a while since I've helped someone file such a return.

Or are you talking about some other refundable tax credit that I'm not considering?

Illegals typically get fake/stolen SSNs or green cards and file returns.

Illegal immigrants got fake green cards, Social Security cards and drivers licenses
(one of many examples)

Having seen the inner working of at least the restaurant industry, I can say from personal experience such arrangements are SOP.

They generally don't share the fact that it's a stolen identity when they walk into the VITA clinic though.

 

[CarmelHP]

Not sure what this is getting at. The EITC only applies to citizens, those with green cards, or non-resident aliens who are married to citizens. Or am I getting this one wrong? It's been a while since I've helped someone file such a return.

Or are you talking about some other refundable tax credit that I'm not considering?

Open your eyes.

FactCheck.org : Tax Credits for Illegal Immigrants

 

[downzero]

I definitely wouldn't say that fraud isn't rampant; it certainly is and that is well-documented. To me, those are arguments for eliminating these welfare programs, not arguments for closed borders.

I also think we should eliminate the child tax credits for a number of reasons which go even beyond immigration policy, as depending on which one we're talking about, they serve as a subsidy from childless middle class taxpayers to richer taxpayers with children, which to me makes no sense.

I agree that the welfare state creates significant difficulties to opening our borders. That's why as part of this deal, our side needs to emphasize reforms in those areas so that we can reap benefits from expanding our labor force without creating more public services/fiscal problems from the influx of workers. I'm 100% with both of you on that.

Where we differ is that I do not buy the argument that growing our population and labor force will lead to more unemployment. That is wrong. These people come here because they want to WORK, and even despite their second-class legal status, they DO.

 

[HICKMAN]

SEIU is going to love all of these new laboreres paying dues.

I'm not sure how much the current native workforce is going to enjoy it once they legally flood into all of the manufacturing, automotive, coal and construction workforce.

Hmmm, OPEN THE GATES!

The mexican union members vs the native former-union member fights should be EPIC!

 

[Rob377]

...
Where we differ is that I do not buy the argument that growing our population and labor force will lead to more unemployment. That is wrong. These people come here because they want to WORK, and even despite their second-class legal status, they DO.

Thats great, they might want to work. (they also want big gov't programs to go with it) Wonderful. No one is hiring. Quite the opposite actually. There is already excess labor capacity that acts as a net drain. The idea that bringing even more excess labor capacity will somehow make demand appear out of thin air is, to put it mildly, ludicrous.

 

[downzero]

Thats great, they might want to work. (they also want big gov't programs to go with it) Wonderful. No one is hiring. Quite the opposite actually. There is already excess labor capacity that acts as a net drain. The idea that bringing even more excess labor capacity will somehow make demand appear out of thin air is, to put it mildly, ludicrous.

I think you're misunderstanding what unemployment statistics actually measure. Unemployment numbers, even if increasing, do not indicate that "no one is hiring."

If the economy is explanding, chances are that a lot of places are hiring. Again, some unemployment is part of any properly functioning capitalist economy. It is cyclical unemployment that should be our concern, and population growth has no bearing whatsoever on cyclical unemployment. Workers looking for work because they just moved here are frictionally unemployed. Policymakers should not be seriously concerned about frictional unemployment. When frictionally unemployed persons find an employer who desires their skill and talent, they will no longer be unemployed.

The fallacy is believing that unemployment statistics prove something that they don't. Unemployment due to business cycle = bad. Preventing workers from coming here who may have skills that are desired and currently unavailable in an area = very bad. Eliminating unemployment due to business cycle = good. Eliminating unemployment by redistributing jobs = not productive use of public funds or policymakers' time.

I think you are also confusing mercantilism with capitalism to suggest that it would be desirable to keep workers out to favor American workers. Capitalism cannot function without a free market for labor, just like any other factor of production.

I agree with both of you that we should not allow them to suck on our government programs. I disagree that the appropriate remedy is to close our borders. Population growth could have serious net-positive effects for our economy if we reform the welfare state rather than keep our broken and unenforced immigration policy.

SEIU is going to love all of these new laboreres paying dues.

Au contraire. The unions are actually on your side on this one. They want closed borders so that they can push wages up and not face competition.

 

[rugertoter]

We already have a pathway to citizenship.

There you go, that's the ticket!

 

[Rob377]

Real unemployment is somewhere in the neighborhood of 16% and labor force participation is as low as it's been in decades because people are giving up looking (and going on disability instead)

This is not "frictional unemployment" which historically is ~4-5%.

Illegals are not bringing in skills that are unavailable here. Most are unskilled laborers.

Nor does it address the very simple fact that adding excess capacity doesn't create demand.

 

[Phil502]

We can always use more busboys, newspaper delivery guys and gardeners. I was just saying the other day, if only I could find a 100 guys to cut my grass I would let one do it.